‘Kzayit’: Rashi Almost Certainly Never Saw an Olive

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/586-kzayit-rashi-almost-certainly-never-saw-an-olive


More on the Kzait issue.
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/03/evolution-of-olive.html

(A lot more available,maybe will post later).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Great article.  Those who scarf down massive portions (and force guests to do the same) are clearly mistaken and missing the point of the seder.  They have morphed what chazal intended by "kezayith" into something unrecognizable.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Great article.  Those who scarf down massive portions (and force guests to do the same) are clearly mistaken and missing the point of the seder.  They have morphed what chazal intended by "kezayith" into something unrecognizable.

 Definitly. The messed up part is that I hear almost yearly how we the masses, and our parents and grandparents have been doing it wrong all these years and how we really should be stuffing 8 or 9 times the amount of Massa every part of the seder requiring eating Massa. Also even perhaps double (the already gigantic amount of ~28 cc (or grams) in order to get everyone's opinion on this matter.
 Thank G-D we stoped this already (at least from last year) and don't do such unnecessary and tasking thing.
 
 And I do have family who are not religious and they go to others houses , and they do complain about Pessah and how much it sucks that they are being forced to shove Massa down their throats to the point of wanting to barf. I tell them its not necessary and pointless and those who force such things do something not necessary + they make the holiday a ritual that everyone wishes to end and leave.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Shiur on this

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/192-when-judaism-becomes-divorced-from-reality-part-1

 (also some of the biggest Rabbanim including Rav Dov Lior amoung others, spoke of this recently- audio in Hebew)

[muman613]

Ive never had any problem eating Matzah at any Chabad seder. That is not to say that there arent those who don't know how much to eat. But an olive is not a very big volume...

It is important to remember that we are not to eat Chametz for the entire seven days of Pesach. I am getting two boxes of Shmurah matzah for this week...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ive never had any problem eating Matzah at any Chabad seder. That is not to say that there arent those who don't know how much to eat. But an olive is not a very big volume...

 Just out of curiosity (just to get a sample of opinions) what do you mean by that statement? Is it like us or something else? About how many cc's (or grams? do you eat)?

[muman613]

I posted about this in last years discussion on the topic @ http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58586.msg526970.html#msg526970 . But in that discussion the question about how many cc's in an olive was not addressed. I do not know off hand but found this discussion which addresses it:


http://www.berachot.org/halacha/13_shiurkazayis.html

2. How much is a Shiur K’zayis

K’zayis means that the item is the size of an olive.  The Shulchan Aruch states that this shiur is a measurement of cubic volume, and explains that volume is measured by submerging an item in water and measuring the amount of water that it displaces.

Some Poskim are of the opinion that the shiur of k’zayis is based on the actual size of an average contemporary olive. Olives are graded into seven sizes from “Small” (.10 of one fluid once) to “Super Colossal” (.50 of one once). The middle size, “Extra Large”, has a volume of .20 of one fluid once. According to this view, the shiur is quite small, the displacement of about 1/5 of one fl. oz.

The Shulchan Aruch gives the shiur in relation to the size of an average egg. The average egg will displace slightly less then 2 fluid ounces. The Shulchan Aruch states that, in view of some rishonim, a k’zayis is equal to approximately one third of an average egg while other rishonim say the shiur k’zayis is equal to half an egg.

The Mishna Berura and most Poskim rule that with regard to brocha achrona we adopt the most stringent view, not to make a brocha achrona unless one ate an amount equal to ½ an egg.

The shiur k’zayis is defined as an item containing slightly less then one fluid once (more precisely .96 of fl. oz.) It could also be measured as 28.8 cubic centimeters.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The Mishna Berura recommends that one should avoid eating an amount for which the brocha achrona requirement is questionable. He may eat the volume of a once or more and unquestionably make a brocha achrona. He may eat the volume of less then half a fl. oz. and not make a brocha achrona. However, he should try to avoid eating between a half fl. oz and one fl. oz., because the brocha achrona requirement for that in-between amount is questionable.

The question of this discussion is not about how much Matzah to eat on Pesach but more specifically whether a blessing is required on a bread meal...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman thanks for addressing my question to you. 1 thing I do not understand from your responses is- first you say
"But an olive is not a very big volume..."
 and we agree, totally. But then you say (as is many times said today) "It could also be measured as 28.8 cubic centimeters."

 Do you know what that size is? It is ~ 1 square machine Massa. That is not a lot for you? (or for anyone) And you do realize that their are a number of times to eat that amount (according to your assesment) on the seder night(s) . Soo you'll be having at least a couple of those on each night (forgot the exact number but maybe 3,4 or 5 times it says to have a "Kzait"). Even 3 square massas at one night is not much? + the other foods.
You said earlier
 "That is not to say that there arent those who don't know how much to eat. "

 That was precisly the point of me making this thread. We say that the amount you stated is not the correct one and the requirement is farrrr less. Literally Kzait- "like an (average) olive" which is 3-5 cc, and not 28 cc, or even 2ce that amount as said by some.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I was just reading an article from the Chayas website on Mishneh Torah vs. Shulchan Aruch and it brought up the problem of olive size:

http://www.chayas.com/shulchanar.htm

 Actually their are those who claim that the Rambam said that a Kzait is ~17 cc (if I remember correctly) and this should be for the old and sick. But in fact it is not true of the Rambam, nor the Shulhan Aruch in this case. Either way their souldn't be this ___vs.____ attitude. Nor of necessarily choosing one and only 1 possik over another. BUT Halacha should be the quest for truth and going with the most logical and correct conclusions based on sources and logic. And their are cases where the Rambam doesn't seem correct and is overrulled by many other Rishonim, their shouldn't be a reason (for todays poskim to decide) not to go by the other Rishonim over the Rambam, or the Shulhan Aruch, or any of the other great Hachamim and writings of the sages of Israel.
 

[muman613]

It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume} in order to fulfill the mitzvah of eating Matzah on Seder Pesach. But I also believe that since we should want to 'beautify the mitzvah' we should not only eat the minimum amount. Since we are not to eat Chametz/Leaven for the entire Chag we should not just eat the minimal amount and instead we should try to feel what Matzah is supposed to remind us about.

I really dont understand the need to argue about this volume. Once again remember how the minhag/custom fits into Jewish ritual. Just last Shabbat my Rabbi was discussing how different shuls have different minhagim, and that when attending a shul with different minhagim that we should not complain that the shuls minhag is wrong {if it is not a mistake and truly a custom of the shul}.

Is there an absolute value which we should eat? I don't really know. Is it important? In the case of the minimal amount of matzah to eat in order to satisfy the mitzvah of eating matzah it may be. But I have no problem eating the minimal amount, and I often eat matzah at least once every day of the Chag...

I suppose the question should be posed to whoever is leading the seder you are attending. And I am not arguing, I believe that these questions are good for us to understand the halacha and inspire others to ask other questions...



http://www.webshas.org/kelal/mitzvah/berovam.htm

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-date/2006/04/?p=1114

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume}"

 That is the Halacha by all (in theory). We say as observed and known through logic and actually seeing olives that the amount is 3-5 cc. 6cc at most.

"But I also believe that since we should want to 'beautify the mitzvah' we should not only eat the minimum amount."
     How is stuffing a lot Massa to the point of sometimes feeling sick and bloated, and forcing others to do the same in some cases beauitifying the Miswaah?
  Also those who maintain its 28cc (or more) don't mention "Hiddur Misswah" but speak of it being "Halacha lemaaseh" which is not the truth.

"I really dont understand the need to argue about this volume."
 I do. First of all it makes the Torah look bad when such innacurite positions are maintained. Secondly its making life difficult for the public, completly unneccessarily. Instead of the seder being what its supposed to be- a night of passing over the tradition of parents to children mainly with the Haggasah including doing some thing like eating (some) Matsa anhaving a normal meal, here its focusing on eating that is unnecessary and only makes (many) people sick and/or annoyed and just wanting to be finished with it. Imagine as well the enormous cultural damage it can have as well. Instead of little Jews (and older as well) getting a great experience on the night having bad ones instead. How excited would they be in passing over such a tradition then to the next generation. Perhaps this leads to doing things out of rott and eventually the dropping the the tradition almost or alltoger as well, in seeing the whole thing as a burden and meaningless, unrational rituals.
  "Once again remember how the minhag/custom fits into Jewish ritual."
 Yes, in fact many have/had a practice of just passing normal pieces of Massa around the table. BUT some today try to tell the public (and I have seen this year after year) that they are wrong, soo were their parents and grandparents.
"I suppose the question should be posed to whoever is leading the seder you are attending. "
 I will be B"H, and thank G-D I say the correct shiur. In fact we have and will have olives on the table as well. Last year when we had guests, I was asked, but didn't the Rabbi say 30 grams at least, I said yes and I quickly explained that its wrong what he said.  I said that anyone who wishes to go by how they view things can do soo without any problems on my part. I believe they were much happier with what I said (at least in this thing) and did follow it. Had I not known the Halacha and thought it was 28 cc (or grams) and say it to them as well, they would just not follow it (remember for every part as well) and just thought that they are not following the Halacha (as happened in past years some years ago) where they just said no (or just didn't east any more).

[muman613]

Ok, you are entitled to do that... I guess I just have not experienced a problem like you suggest.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ok, you are entitled to do that... I guess I just have not experienced a problem like you suggest.

 Okay. Soo on the first (and second in galut) nights you are able to drink 4 cups on wine (no argument on this) + eat at least 120 grams of Massa (the Massa in the beginning + the Korach (Sandwich-really supposed to be swarma) Massa with the other foods like the marror + the Afikoman +the extra Massa for the remeberence of the Korban Pessah + the meal that we are supposed to have (different foods + Massa as well)
 and with all that you physically feel fine? If you do by all means but I have a hard time believing soo.

[muman613]

Here is an article which discusses many of the opinions explaining why the size of a kazayit has morphed over the generations.

http://koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Quote from: muman613 on April 01, 2012, 11:55:42 PM

This article is also covers all the opinions...

http://koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm




 Actually wrong thread to begin with (this has to do with Kzait). And no, it does NOT cover all the opinions. I skimmed through it and I see it covers the (wrong) large opinion as to the size of the olive and then DOUBLES the already enormous size. It is partly understandable how people some years ago in Europe made such mistakes (thinking eggs were larger where in fact the eggs were much smaller and not knowing what an olive is) but today it is clearly obvious to any normal rational human being.
 Anyway I suggest you read the article origionally posted. It addresses oall of these errors that arose in Europe especially where the didn't have olives and how such enormous amounts came to be. And anyway soo then do you double the already large 28.8 grams you mentioned earler for each of the meals parts?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

From Muman
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
The statement says that it is the size of an olive, but various opinions increased the size to a fraction of an egg. I believe that it is the size of a current olive, and that is what our minhag is at the seders I have attended.

And I apologize for saying it has all the opinions, it is obvious that there are more opinions on the topic than are listed in that article.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

My reply

 No olive is 28.8 cc and especially not the size of an egg. Don't you have olives in your local grocery? I (and before you say maybe a large one) the sages said not a large one and not a small one but a medium one. And these strains are still here today, some of these trees are standing from 3,000 years ago!
   Look at olives today, and yess they are the exact same olives as their were before (and even had they not been the Geonim said that a person should determine according to the olives that he sees) the average one's are ~3-5 cc, how will you (or the article) and others claim that you are going by the size of an olive and at the same time claim that the size is at the minimum 28 cc ? I see this as ludacrise and completly irrational. How can these people who claim as such really be relied upon as Hachamim and ones who can lead a normal Jewish society? (That is even the greater issue here).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Here is an article which discusses many of the opinions explaining why the size of a kazayit has morphed over the generations.

http://koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm

 I read it and honestly it doesn't address the question, not at all. It only discusses the alreasdy large vs. the even larger sizes (going from point c to point d while skipping a and b). For a comprehensive discuss and history of this including "points A and B, and C and D as well)" check this article its a free download (usually some of his larger essays you need to donate, but this one is free)
 
 http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/03/evolution-of-olive.html
 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume}"


 Yepp and this is the current and former olive, was and still is.

 http://www.zootorah.com/RationalistJudaism/MatzahMarorChart.pdf

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Shiur by HaRav Dov Lior Shalitta on K'Zait being K Zait (like an olive).





http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2013/03/the-popularity-of-olives.html

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Rav Abadi on the shiur of a K Zait

The measurement for a "Kazait," which is the size of the Matzah and Maror required to eat by the different periods during the Seder, is about 1/6th of a square machine Matzah. For round hand made ones, use your judgment, since each one is a little different.

(For the link where this was written AND the laws of Pessah as well).
http://kashrut.org/halacha/?law=pesach

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

""Hacham Ben Sion Abba Shaul (Israel, 1923-1998) addresses this question in his work of responsa Or Le’sion (vol. 3, 15:13; listen to audio recording for precise citation). He writes that ideally, one should place the two Kezetim of Masa in his mouth all at once, chew it very well, and then swallow it. Ideally, one should swallow all the Masa at once. If this is too difficult, one should swallow one Kezayit, and then swallow the rest afterward."

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1800


  If someone can source this - meaning bring the opinion from a Gemarah or something, even better.
Now I would like to ask those who in any way think an olive is about 30 grams how would this be possible? If we go with olives being about 5cc (or about 5 grams) very easy and possible, but with 30x2= 60 grams of Massa being swallowed at once? I see a great recipe to getting choked.

[muman613]

""Hacham Ben Sion Abba Shaul (Israel, 1923-1998) addresses this question in his work of responsa Or Le’sion (vol. 3, 15:13; listen to audio recording for precise citation). He writes that ideally, one should place the two Kezetim of Masa in his mouth all at once, chew it very well, and then swallow it. Ideally, one should swallow all the Masa at once. If this is too difficult, one should swallow one Kezayit, and then swallow the rest afterward."

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/displayRead.asp?readID=1800


  If someone can source this - meaning bring the opinion from a Gemarah or something, even better.
Now I would like to ask those who in any way think an olive is about 30 grams how would this be possible? If we go with olives being about 5cc (or about 5 grams) very easy and possible, but with 30x2= 60 grams of Massa being swallowed at once? I see a great recipe to getting choked.

I cannot answer your question about this but in the short search I just did it seems this Rabbi 'Hacham Ben Sion Abba Shaul' is brought by Rabbi Eli Mansour to answer several questions.

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1655

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1653

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1804

Otherwise I can find very little about his sefer 'Or Le'sion' in my web search..

[muman613]

I am just learning about this Chacham... Here is some biographical information about him:


http://www.torah.org/learning/hamaayan/5768/matos.html

R' Ben Zion Abba Shaul z"l

R' Ben Zion Abba Shaul was born in Yerushalayim in 1924 to R' Eliyahu, an immigrant from Persia, and his wife, Benaya. Although a shoemaker by trade, R' Eliyahu was also a dedicated scholar. Benaya, too, valued Torah study; when she was pregnant with the future R' Ben Zion, she asked every scholar she met to bless her that her son should grow up to be a talmid chacham.

At age 11, young Ben Zion entered Yeshivat Porat Yosef. His first teacher was R' Yehuda Sadkah, who taught a class of young prodigies that also included the future Chief Rabbi and renowned posek R' Ovadiah Yosef. R' Ben Zion continued to progress to the highest class taught by R' Ezra Attiah. Eventually, R' Ben Zion himself became rosh yeshiva.

When R' Ben Zion was about 20 years old, one of the leading American sages, R' Eliezer Silver, came to Yeshivat Porat Yosef in the company of a wealthy American who was investigating which yeshiva was most worthy of his sizable donation. R' Ben Zion was chosen as the student to be tested by R' Silver, who asked the young scholar a question in the obscure area of Taharot (laws of ritual purity). When R' Ben Zion gave his answer, R' Silver said that he had asked the same question 40 years earlier to R' Meir Simcha Hakohen of Dvinsk (author of Ohr Sameach and Meshech Chochmah) and had received the same answer. R' Ben Zion later told R' Attiah that he had a second answer to the question as well, but since the first answer sufficed to secure the donation, offering a second answer might have been considered showing-off.

R' Ben Zion was recognized by Ashkenazic and Sephardic scholars alike for his "amelut" (inadequately translated "effort" or "toil") at Torah study. It is said that when he finished delivering a Torah lecture, he would inevitably be soaked with perspiration. His hatmadah / diligence also was legendary. As a young married man, he lived next door to R' Ovadiah Yosef and even their walks to and from yeshiva together would be occupied with reviewing pages of Talmud by heart.

R' Ben Zion encouraged the study of kabbalah, but only for those who had purified their character traits. He used to say, "If a man doesn't know how to get along with his wife, how can he learn kabbalah and be called a mekubal?"

Besides his scholarship, R' Ben Zion was known for giving blessings that were fulfilled. When asked why he had this ability, he responded humbly, "Hashem promised Avraham that anyone who blesses Avraham's descendants will be blessed. When people come to me for blessings, they kiss my hand, which is a form of blessing to me. Thus, they themselves are blessed."

R' Ben Zion passed away on 19 Tammuz 5758 (1998). (Aleppo: City of Scholars p.83)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  No Muman, I know who this Rav was. That was not my point. I wanted to know if and where it (to eat it all in one shot) is sourced in the Talmudh and sages about eating it all in one shot. Now that I think of it, I do vagually remember an opinion I believe by Beit Shamai that says such a thing. I am pressed for time right now soo perhaps I will search and find it later (and share it here as well).
  My point is that one can only eat the volume of an olive (or 2) at one shot when the size of the olive is actually an olive and not when it is this gigantic measurement some thought it out to be.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It is my humble opinion that a person should eat at least the minimum amount {The current olive sized volume} in order to fulfill the mitzvah of eating Matzah on Seder Pesach. But I also believe that since we should want to 'beautify the mitzvah'

. No one is required to beautify anything.

we should not only eat the minimum amount. Since we are not to eat Chametz/Leaven for the entire Chag we should not just eat the minimal amount and instead we should try to feel what Matzah is supposed to remind us about. 

Who is going to have a whole meal and only eat a tiny olive sized bit of matzah?  Come on, no one is doing that.  The whole discussion is about how much fulfills the requirement of the mitzvah.  Since you make a bracha on "achilat matzah" you want to fulfill that mitzvah immediately after the bracha, as is the case with other types of mitzvahs which follow a special bracha.   So the discussion about kezayith is not about how much we eat at the seder meal but about how much we shove into our gullets after the bracha, at the very first instance of eating matzah at the seder.

I really dont understand the need to argue about this volume.

. All the poskim discuss this matter so they saw a reason.  The main reason I can see is that this volume determines whether a person has or has not fulfilled a very important deoraissa(Torah) commandment.  So that's a very important discussion if we're going to take Jewish law seriously.  Which we should.

Once again remember how the minhag/custom fits into Jewish ritual. Just last Shabbat my Rabbi was discussing how different shuls have different minhagim, and that when attending a shul with different minhagim that we should not complain that the shuls minhag is wrong {if it is not a mistake and truly a custom of the shul}.

Commandment to eat matzah on the first night of pesach is directly from the Torah.  Not a matter of custom.