‘Kzayit’: Rashi Almost Certainly Never Saw an Olive

[muman613]

KWRBT,

You keep bringing up things from years ago...

Nobody is forcing you to eat more matzah than is halachically required. I don't know why the whole premise is so important to you. I have never heard anyone complaining that they are being forced to eat more matzah than is required.

It is clear that the size is called a Kezayit. As I brought when this topic was originally discussed, there is a dispute as to the size of this kezayit. If you hold that the size of a kezayit is a small olive, very well. Don't eat more than that kezayit, and nobody will think you are doing anything wrong.

But there are those who hold that a kezayit is somewhat larger than this small olive. So what are you going to do?

Either there is a conspiracy of the rabbis who want us to eat more matzah than is commanded by the Torah, or there is a valid disagreement concerning the size of the kezayit.

I usually eat at least one entire shmurah matzah during seder. I buy a box of shmurah matzah and it usually lasts the entire week. I used to buy too much matzah but now I know how much I need and usually don't have any left at the end of Pesach.

Anyway, I don't want to argue about it. I think eating matzah on Pesach is easy and don't really think much of the difference in the volume of a kezayit (small olive or small egg).

http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/10951/jewish/Kezayit.htm

Kezayit: (lit. "like an olive"); a halachic measure formally described as the size of an olive, and approximately one ounce or 25.6 grams

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Is there an absolute value which we should eat? I don't really know. Is it important? In the case of the minimal amount of matzah to eat in order to satisfy the mitzvah of eating matzah it may be. But I have no problem eating the minimal amount, and I often eat matzah at least once every day of the Chag...

I suppose the question should be posed to whoever is leading the seder you are attending. And I am not arguing, I believe that these questions are good for us to understand the halacha and inspire others to ask other questions...

How much one eats at the seder is less important than this question of how much satisfies the mitzvah but in reality, that question isn't as relevant as people make it out to be anyway once we realize how simple chazal's instructions were.    All they meant was that to fulfill the mitzvah requirement of the Torah, you have to eat a "substantive" amount of matzah to qualify it.   Not a tiny crumb.  But not a massive portion either.   Basically the size of a normal size bite full, which they characterized as about the size of an olive.  That is basically how much a normal person eating a normal meal takes into his mouth in one basic sized bite full.

We are being kovea a seuda on matzah, so logic would dictate it's going to feature prominently in that meal and people will eat a good deal of it over the course of the night and the chag itself.

So where does this question even factor in, you might ask?  Why bother with the reactionary stuff against people scarfing down monstrous portions to "fulfill the mitzvah" (so they claim)?    Several reasons.  One is, let's know what we are talking about and not necessarily jump after every cultural norm or "keep up with the jones's" type of frumkeit.  (Although some cultural norms may be worthwhile - it depends which one!).    2.  A sick person who is not feeling well and cannot stomach a whole meal, maybe he still wants to satisfy the mitzvah.  So he takes a small olive sized portion and boom, he's done.    Not 2 and a halve matzahs in which case most sick people who would otherwise satisfy the mitzvah if they had the strength to take in a small bite, would definitely not.    3.  Even if not sick, it factors into all of our lives because it has to do with how much we eat in that first initial "mitzvah-fulfilling" portion in a short time span.   If the kezayith really magnified to 30 times what it used to be, then we have to sit there and stuff matzah into our mouths without water or other interruptions within x number of seconds after making the bracha.   Otherwise, if olive means just an olive, as it most certainly did when chazal said olive, then that first bite just has to be a basic sized bite which allows plenty of seconds to chew and swallow, no stress at all, and then continue with the meal where we will all have plentiful amounts of matzah -spread out over time to our leisure, combined with water and other foods as we please.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

You keep bringing up things from years ago... 

Pesach happens every year.

I just checked into the Torah section and saw this post near the top, so I read some of the thread which I didn't see before, and replied.  Simple as that.

If you do not benefit from what I write, I'm sorry to hear that.  But maybe others will.

[muman613]

And yes, I realize it is important to know whether you have fulfilled the mitzvah.

But as with almost everything in our religion, it is depending upon which sages you hold by. There are sources which justify the larger amount, and other sources which justify the smaller amount. I would say that in cases like this it is best to err on the side of eating more than the minimum amount according to the lenient opinion. But this is just my approach.

[muman613]

Pesach happens every year.

I just checked into the Torah section and saw this post near the top, so I read some of the thread which I didn't see before, and replied.  Simple as that.

Ok, no problem. As long as we don't get personal I am willing to debate what my thoughts are concerning this topic. When I originally read the topic I was surprised that there was so much discussion concerning the topic. I realize now that I was just not aware of it...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And yes, I realize it is important to know whether you have fulfilled the mitzvah.

But as with almost everything in our religion, it is depending upon which sages you hold by. There are sources which justify the larger amount, and other sources which justify the smaller amount. I would say that in cases like this it is best to err on the side of eating more than the minimum amount according to the lenient opinion. But this is just my approach.

Again, don't conflate the issues.

First off, "sages" normally refers to the talmudic sages.   It is the Talmud which concludes we need to eat a kezayith to satisfy the mitzvah.  All agree to that.   All poskim agree.

Second, the argument is not over how much you eat in an entire meal.   People will naturally eat plenty of matzah in a meal in which it begins by making a blessing over the matzah (rather than bread).  Obviously matzah will feature prominently in that meal.     

The question is over how much you eat in the immediate aftermath of making the bracha.   There is a timespan that follows and either a very natural easy to swallow amount that is the natural result of taking a bite after the bracha.  OR, stuffing down 2 and a half matzahs within x # of seconds after the bracha.     It has NOTHING, absolutely nothing, to do with how much one will subsequently eat throughout the rest of the meal, which in any natural circumstance is going to be a significant amount.    There is no reason to err on the side of caution or not err on the side of caution, we are all having plenty of matzah throughout our seder meal.   The question is about immediately after the bracha.    You need to eat a kezayith right after the bracha.    A kezayith is about the size of an olive - a normal sized bite.   Only a sick person or someone maybe with special dietary restrictions would possibly eat ONLY a kezayith of matzah for their whole meal.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

As always I attempt to be intellectually honest, and even if I am arguing one way, will provide evidence which supports those who argue with me, because to me the issue is not personal (not that I imply it is to you of course) but more important to learn the opinion of the ones who learn and teach halacha and trust their opinions.

We were discussing halacha according to Rabbi Eli Mansour of dailyhalacha.com . Rabbi Mansour is a Sephardic rabbi who teaches according to the tradition of Rabbi Yosef Caro. Here is what he says on the kezayit:

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1566

It should be noted that this basic principle – that the amount of Ke'zayit is determined by volume, and not by weight – affects other areas of Halacha, as well. On the first night of Pesah, for example, Halacha requires eating a Ke'zayit of Masa. Were we to measure a Ke'zayit of Masa by weight, one would be required to eat one or possibly two Masot. Since, however, we measure a Ke'zayit by volume, it is generally assumed that one fulfills his obligation by eating approximately one half of a machine-made Masa.

It seems according to him that the debate is over whether we use the weight, or the volume, of the kezayit to determine how much Matzah to eat...

So maybe this is what we need to clarify in explaining the halacha...

[muman613]

Yes, I understand the halacha is that we must eat a kezayit several times during the seder.

The basic difference as Rabbi Mansour demonstrated is that according to the weight or the volume, this kezayit can be either 1-2 machine-made matzahs or 1/2 a machine made matzah...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman it is by volume. In this case it is about equal. And it's not a small olive. It is an average olive that we see and discovered. It is about 5 cc at most. That is the minimum requirement. The chabad source you brought is laughable and sad. How does it correctly define Kzait being like an olive and the state 25 grams? Show me any olive like this. Are you not aware what an olive looks like?                   And about forcing people it is done by some who verbally tell the audience that they have not supposedly kept pessah all of these years because they did not stuff themselves with these enormous amounts. Soo their is this pressure. Then when one has guests they wonder why one is not doing what the rabbi said and start looking at you as if your reform or something. I'm personally not intimidated but nevertheless these things are not pleasant. Then their is also the issue of health where people our people are told to basically damage their bodies for nothing, + it creates an unpleasant holiday for absolutely nothing and most of all shows the incompetence of those who still insist upon this and total lack of clarity and inability to be real hachamim that we soo desperately need more of!

[muman613]

Muman it is by volume. In this case it is about equal. And it's not a small olive. It is an average olive that we see and discovered. It is about 5 cc at most. That is the minimum requirement. The chabad source you brought is laughable and sad. How does it correctly define Kzait being like an olive and the state 25 grams? Show me any olive like this. Are you not aware what an olive looks like?                   And about forcing people it is done by some who verbally tell the audience that they have not supposedly kept pessah all of these years because they did not stuff themselves with these enormous amounts. Soo their is this pressure. Then when one has guests they wonder why one is not doing what the rabbi said and start looking at you as if your reform or something. I'm personally not intimidated but nevertheless these things are not pleasant. Then their is also the issue of health where people our people are told to basically damage their bodies for nothing, + it creates an unpleasant holiday for absolutely nothing and most of all shows the incompetence of those who still insist upon this and total lack of clarity and inability to be real hachamim that we soo desperately need more of!

Don't go knocking what some Rabbis say without knowing that they just don't pull the number out of thin air... As I stated in an earlier posting there certainly are sources which suggest it is more than that 5cc olive. The Shulchan Oruch, a standard of Halacha according to a great segment of the Jewish population, and so too Rambam assign a size larger than a 5 cc olive...

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/shiurimONpesach.htm

Defining the Size of an Egg

The cup used for the four cups of wine at the seder must minimally contain a Reviit of liquid (see Shulchan Aruch O.C. 472:9). One must consume at least a Kezayit (the volume of an olive) of Matza in order to fulfill the Mitzva (see Rambam Hilchot Chametz U'Matza 6:1 and Shulchan Aruch O.C. 475:1). Similarly, one must eat a Kezayit of Maror to fulfill the Mitzva (see Shulchan Aruch O.C. 475:1 and the sources cited by Rav Shimon Eider Halachot of Pesach 21: note 15).

The Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 486) notes that a Kezayit is the size of half an egg. The Mishna Berura (486:1) notes that the Rambam says that a Kezayit is a third of an egg. The Mishna Berura rules that a sick individual may rely on the opinion of the Rambam. The Mishna Berura (271:68) notes that a Reviit is equivalent to the amount of liquid that one and a half eggs can displace. The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 324:1) notes that the minimum amount of flour from which we must take Challa is the equivalent of 43.2 eggs. Accordingly, it is vital to determine the size of an egg.

Students often ask why the Halacha presents its measures in such imprecise terms such as the size of an egg or an olive. The Otzar Hageonim to Eruvin (chapter three) presents a highly insightful answer. The explanation presented is that Hashem knew that the Jewish people would eventually be scattered throughout the world. Thus, had Hashem presented Moshe Rabbeinu with precise measures they would have easily been forgotten with the passage of time. Since eggs and olives are always available throughout the world, Torah measurements can be determined in any environment and culture.

The Chumra of the Tzlach

The Gemara presents two standards for determining the measures mentioned in the Torah. The Gemara in Eruvin (83a) presents the size of an egg as a criterion to determine Torah measurements. In addition, the Gemara in Pesachim (109a) presents thumbs as a criterion to determine Torah measurements. Accordingly, both thumbs and eggs are viable Halachic standards to determine Torah measurements. Indeed, the Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 324:1) presents both thumbs and eggs as viable options to determine the minimum amount of flour from which Challa must be taken.

Rav Yechezkel Landau, a major eighteenth century authority, in his commentary to the Gemara known as the Tzlach (Pesachim 109a), writes that he carefully measured thumbs and eggs and discovered that the two do not yield equal measurements. In fact, the measurement yielded by thumbs was twice the amount yielded by that of eggs. Rav Landau arrives at an extraordinary conclusion to resolve this problem. He assumes that the size of people's thumbs has not changed since the time of the Talmud. Instead, he concludes that the eggs in his time were half the size of what they were in the time of the Talmud. This ruling has great ramifications. According to Rav Landau, the Kezayit for Matza and other Mitzvot should be regarded as the equivalent of an entire egg and not a half of an egg as had traditionally been assumed. The Reviit should be regarded as the amount of liquid that can be displaced by three eggs instead of an egg and a half as had previously been assumed. The shiur for Challa would now be the volume of 86.4 eggs and not 43.2 eggs as had previously been practiced. In short, Rav Landau ruled that we must eat twice as much Matza as we had been accustomed to consuming in the past in order to fulfill the Mitzva of eating Matza.

Reaction to the Chumra of the Tzlach

Rav Landau's extraordinary ruling was met with both support and criticism. The Vilna Gaon (as reported in the Maaseh Rav 74) agreed with Rav Landau's ruling. The Aruch Hashulchan (Orach Chaim 168:13, O.C. 372:12 and Y.D. 324:5-10) notes that Rav Landau's ruling is adhered to by those who are especially scrupulous in matters of Halacha. However, he notes that most Jews retained the established practice and did not follow Rav Landau's ruling. The Aruch Hashulchan rules that one may choose to follow the strict opinion but he should not impose this Chumra on others. He notes various difficulties with Rav Landau's ruling. First, it constitutes a sharp departure from previously accepted practice. Second, the Gemara in Yoma (80a) teaches that one's mouth can hold an amount of food up to the size of an egg. The Aruch Hashulchan argues that according to Rav Landau one should be able to hold up to the size of two of "today's eggs" in his mouth. The Aruch Hashulchan points out that this is simply impossible. The Aruch Hashulchan also suggests that perhaps Rav Landau used small eggs in his determinations. The Aruch Hashulchan notes that egg size varies from area to area. He points out that this fact was already noted centuries earlier by the Tashbetz (3:33). The Aruch Hashulchan notes that the Mishna (Keilim 17:6) states that the egg that the rabbis speak of is neither a large or small egg but an average one. Accordingly, it is very possible that the eggs in the area of Rav Landau were small and thus skewed Rav Landau's findings.

The Chazon Ish (O.C. 39) defends Rav Landau's ruling. He notes that Shiurim are by definition imprecise and vary depending on the measurement of the great Halachic authorities of the time. Thus, Rav Landau's ruling does not call into question the Halachic practice of prior generations because they relied on the measurements of the rabbis of those generations. The Chazon Ish writes that there is no absolute right or wrong regarding the determination of Shiurim. The Chazon Ish argues that we must accept the Shiurim as determined by the great Halachic authorities, which include Rav Yechezkel Landau and the Vilna Gaon.

Conclusion

The Shaarei Teshuva (O.C. 486) and Mishnah Berura (486:1) adopt a compromising view regarding this issue. They rule that for biblical level obligations we should follow the strict ruling of Rav Landau. Regarding rabbinical level obligations, we may rely on the traditionally accepted smaller Shiurim. Thus, since the first Kezayit of Matza and the Afikoman might be required biblically (see Rashbam Pesachim 119b s.v. Ein Maftirin and Rosh Pesachim 10:34), the larger Shiur of Matza should be consumed for both of these occasions. In addition, by consuming the larger shiur one thereby accommodates the preferred practice of eating two Kezeitim for both the Matza that is eaten at the beginning of the meal and the Afikoman (see Shulchan Aruch 475:1, Mishna Berura 477:1, and Rav Yehoshua Neuwirth cited in Nishmat Avraham 4:68). However, since the Matza eaten for Korech is only a rabbinical requirement, the smaller Shiur suffices. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, (Kol Dodi 14:11 and 18:3) the Shiur of Matza for Motzi Matza and the Afikoman should be 6.25 by 7 inches and the Matza for Korech need only be 4 by 7 inches (for more sources on this issue see Nishmat Avraham 4:67-70). Since the Mitzva of the four cups is only rabbinical, the smaller Shiur suffices.

According to Rav Moshe Feinstein (Kol Dodi 2:6), 3.3 fluid ounces suffices for the four cups of wine. When the Seder falls on Shabbat eve, the larger Shiur is required since Kiddush is a biblical requirement. According to Rav Moshe Feinstein, the larger Shiur is 4.4 fluid ounces. Since some authorities believe that Kiddush for Yom Tov is always a biblical requirement (see Minchat Chinuch 31), it is best to use the larger Shiur for the first cup at the Seder even if the Seder falls on a weeknight

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Mum neither of these sources - Rambam nor SA state such a thing. Bring the direct sources, also see and discover the eggs if they were referring to, and like I said earlier please show me 1 olive that is 25 or ( as commonly said) 30 grams. Retread the very first essay if you read it to begin with.

[muman613]

There is nothing more to see here. I have brought the reason for the disagreements concerning the size of kezayit. The last quoted section I reposted here explains completely why some Rabbis say the kezayit is larger (Chumra of Tzlach). If you think there is something to argue about it is just because you want to argue about it. This topic apparently has been argued about for many many years and I doubt you, or the rabbi you quote, will make much of a difference in the Jewish world.

If you feel you know the right size of a kezayit I am very happy. Maybe just discussing it is the point of the debate.

[muman613]

I hope to talk with my Rabbi this afternoon about his explanation for the various sources for the amount of a kezayit..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

As always I attempt to be intellectually honest, and even if I am arguing one way, will provide evidence which supports those who argue with me, because to me the issue is not personal (not that I imply it is to you of course) but more important to learn the opinion of the ones who learn and teach halacha and trust their opinions.

We were discussing halacha according to Rabbi Eli Mansour of dailyhalacha.com . Rabbi Mansour is a Sephardic rabbi who teaches according to the tradition of Rabbi Yosef Caro. Here is what he says on the kezayit:

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1566

It seems according to him that the debate is over whether we use the weight, or the volume, of the kezayit to determine how much Matzah to eat...

So maybe this is what we need to clarify in explaining the halacha...

Even still, by volume or by weight, his calculations assume something much too big IMO.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rambam never says an olive is an egg.   This is an exegetical derivation made by other sources reading the Rambam, not something he said directly relating egg to olive (or half-egg to olive, I forget what it was exactly).     There is no reason to believe he means anything other than olive sized, as the Spanish rishonim, who witnessed real olives, explain it - and Unlike the French rishonim including Rashi who probably never saw what an olive looks like and so have no choice but to try to derive the actual size textually rather than by knowing through observation.   

Not only that, but even going by those derivations of what Rambam said, the eggs of his time from the middle eastern chickens were far smaller than the huge eggs we see today from the European chickens (not to mention they are pumped with growth hormones, but in any case they lay bigger eggs than mideast species).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

[muman613]

This link contains a chart demonstrating the various opinions on the amount of a kezayit...

http://www.dafyomi.co.il/general/info/oldunits-of-measurement.pdf

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

In Hebrew

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ba bump ba ba ba bummp

[muman613]

Ba bump ba ba ba bummp

I don't believe you are still worried that people are eating too much Matzah...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I don't believe you are still worried that people are eating too much Matzah...

 I am actually.

 1) Pessah is coming up and people should be aware of these Halachot and no point in me making a new thread with these issues presented. Show the old post but the same message needed for this coming year and actually all year since many people eat more then a real Kzait ("like an olive") and don't say Bitkat HaMazon as they should! Skipping a Rabinically ordained Misswah (Rabbinic because by the Torah its once someone is full, and Rabinic when its at least a Kzait- "like a (real) olive, which is about 3.5 cc also = in grams the same in this case).

 2) Their can be people who believe that they need to stuff themselves with 30 or even 60 grams of massa in the different sections of the seder (which is up to 5 TIMES), ookay, that is them. BUT then their are many other people who will be at their Sedar's, even perhaps people who aren't really connected to Yahadut much, the first group can and sometimes (or many times) tells them that they need to eat more, much much more Massa and that if they don't then they aren't fulfilling the Misswah. And many times these other's either comply in order not to offend or refuse, and thinking of themselves as not doing the Misswah, AND more importantly thinking that this is all BS and that Judaism is divorced from reality.
 So yes, this is still something to worry about as I unfortunately expect Rabbis and public speakers, unfortunately continuing to in the upcoming weeks (before Pessah) emphasizing this WRONG interpretation of Halacha. Until it is fixed at least to a large extent and at least people knowing the alternative view, it should and must be emphasized and learned over and over again (and not only that but just like all Halachot should be reviewed, this is a good time to learn and know this, those who wish to be stubborn, that's their choice, but for the rest of us, we can learn and know what to do.).