Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 3832 times)

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Offline Dan Ben Noah

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Shalom
« on: April 02, 2012, 06:53:40 PM »
Shalom
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 05:12:18 PM by Dan Ben Noah »
Jeremiah 16:19 O Lord, Who are my power and my strength and my refuge in the day of trouble, to You nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Only lies have our fathers handed down to us, emptiness in which there is nothing of any avail!

Zechariah 8:23 So said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, when ten men of all the languages of the nations shall take hold of the skirt of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

Offline muman613

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Re: How do Orthodox Jews believe the Torah was revealed?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2012, 08:01:08 PM »
Is there a uniform belief among Orthodox Jews about how the Torah was revealed?  Was the Torah in its present form dictated by G-d to Moses?  Was it revealed in a non-verbal form, such as via a series of visions or inspirations?  Did Moses have any influence over what's written or do all words come from HaShem?  Is there a possibility that later prophets or priests wrote any of the Torah and/or put it together it in its current form?  By Torah I mean the first 5 books of the Tanakh.

The Torah clearly explains that Moses ascended Mount Sinai for forty days and received the Tablets of the Covenant. During this time on the mountain Hashem transmitted the entire Torah to him including both the written and the Oral law. When Moses was told to go down from the mountain because the people were committing the sin of the Golden Calf he descended and saw what the people had done and he smashed these tablets.

After beseeching Hashem for mercy on the people, due to the fact Hashem was so 'angry' at the people he wanted to destroy the entire nation, Moses went back up on the mountain for another forty days and received the new tablets along with some changes in how the service was to be done. Originally every Firstborn was intended to be a High Priest but after the sin of the Golden Calf the Kohenim {descendants of Aaron} would be the high priest....

There are many questions about whether Moses knew before-hand about each of the incidents during the journey in the desert. Also there is a question whether Moses wrote the final Parasha or whether Joshua completed it...

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http://www.beingjewish.com/cycle/exchange.html
Replaced, But Still Holy

Not very long after we left Egypt, some of the Gentiles who had left Egypt with the Children of Israel tricked many of the Israelites into worshiping an idol, the golden calf. The firstborn were also involved in that sin, as well as many other men. Therefore, the firstborn lost their lofty positions as kohanim, and no longer were allowed to officiate with sacrifices or other priestly duties, and they therefore no longer received the Priestly Gifts (such as the Firstborn animal, the tithes, and all the other things given to kohanim). The firstborn still have a special status, but not as kohanim.

However, the entire Tribe of Levi did not sin. They remained completely loyal to Hashem, and never worshiped the golden calf. Because of that, Hashem awarded to them the job of serving Hashem at the Holy Temple. Most of them did service as Levites. Aaron the Levite became the High Priest, and his descendants became the kohanim.

But what about the firstborn? How do we commemorate the fact that Hashem saved them from death in Egypt?

Since the Torah commanded that each firstborn son still be considered holy, we perform a ceremony in which we acknowledge the miracle that Hashem did for all the firstborn. Now, when a firstborn son is redeemed, it is because he is no longer a kohain. He has certain advantages as a firstborn, but he may no longer do the Holy Service at the Holy Temple.

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http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2508/jewish/The-120-Day-Version.htm
On 7 Sivan, Moses went up onto the mountain . . . On 17 Tammuz, the tablets were broken. On the 18th, he burned the [Golden] Calf and judged the transgressors. On the 19th, he went up for forty days and pleaded for mercy. On 1 Elul, he went up to receive the second tablets, and was there for forty days. On 10 Tishrei, G‑d restored His goodwill with the Jewish people gladly and wholeheartedly, saying to Moses, “I have forgiven, as you ask,” and gave him the Second Tablets.

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The Events
On 6 Sivan 2448, the entire people of Israel gathered at Mount Sinai to receive the Torah from the Almighty. There they experienced the revelation of G‑d, and heard the Ten Commandments, which encapsulate the entire Torah. The following morning Moses ascended the mountain, where he communed with G‑d for forty days and forty nights and received the Torah proper, the more detailed rendition of G‑d’s communication to humanity.

At the end of Moses’ (first) forty days on Mount Sinai, G‑d gave him two tablets of stone, the handiwork of G‑d, upon which the Ten Commandments were engraved by the finger of G‑d. But in the camp below, the Jewish people were already abandoning their newly made covenant with G‑d. Reverting to the paganism of Egypt, they made a calf of gold and, amidst feasting and hedonistic disport, proclaimed it the god of Israel.

G‑d said to Moses: Descend, for your people, which you have brought up from the land of Egypt, have been corrupted; they have quickly turned from the path that I have commanded them . . .

Moses turned and went down from the mountain, with the two tablets of testimony in his hand . . . When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing . . . he threw the tablets from his hands and shattered them at the foot of the mountain.

It was the 17th of Tammuz.

Moses destroyed the idol and rehabilitated the errant nation. He then returned to Sinai for a second forty days, to plead before G‑d for the forgiveness of Israel. G‑d acquiesced, and agreed to provide a second set of tablets to replace those which had been broken in the wake of Israel’s sin. These tablets, however, were not to be the handiwork of G‑d, but of human construction:

G‑d said to Moses: Carve yourself two tablets of stone, like the first; and I shall inscribe upon them the words that were on the first tablets which you have broken . . . Come up in the morning to Mt. Sinai, and present yourself there to Me on the top of the mountain.

Moses ascended Sinai, for his third and final forty days atop the mountain, on 1 Elul. G‑d had already forgiven Israel’s sin, and now a new and invigorated relationship between Him and His people was to be rebuilt on the ruins of the old. On 10 Tishrei we received our second set of the Ten Commandments, inscribed by G‑d upon the tablets carved by Moses hand.

Thus, we have three forty-day periods, and three corresponding states of Torah: the first tablets, the broken tablets and the second tablets. These embody the foundation of our existence, the challenge of life and the ultimate achievement of man.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: How do Orthodox Jews believe the Torah was revealed?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 08:08:21 PM »
See also http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1438



G-d gave the Torah to Moses and the Jewish people at Mount Sinai 3,316 years ago. This was seven weeks after the Exodus from Egypt, on the 6th day of the month Sivan, in the year 2448 of the Jewish calendar. On that day, G-d revealed Himself to the entire Jewish people (which included some 600,000 adult men, in addition to women, children and the aged) and declared to them the Ten Commandments. Afterwards, Moses ascended Mount Sinai where, for forty days, G-d taught him the entire Written and Oral Torah. Later, on Yom Kippur, Moses descended with the second tablets of the Ten Commandments and began to teach the people what he heard from G-d on Mount Sinai.

This was the only event in history where G-d revealed Himself to an entire people, who simultaneously witnessed and experienced His will. "And G-d said to Moses, I come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you" (Ex. 19:9). "And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet G-d, and they stood at the bottom of the mount" (19:17). "And G-d spoke all these words saying, I am the Lord your G-d" (20:1). "And all the people perceived the thundering, and the lightning, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking" (20:15). Moses himself emphasized to the people the uniqueness of this event: "Did ever a people hear the voice of G-d speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard? To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord is G-d" (Deut. 4:32-35).

Rabbi Joseph Albo (Spain, c. 1400) comments on the significance of the way in which G-d gave the Torah: "That which is perceived by the greatest number of people is most widely believed; therefore the Holy One wanted the Torah to be bestowed through Moses with the greatest possible publicity and before a multitude of more than six hundred thousand…comprised of intelligent and astute men of diverse characters and attitudes so as to leave not the slightest shadow of a doubt in the minds of its recipients or in the minds of subsequent generations. Thus its reception would be both as correct and as fully credited as possible".

The Written Torah is the word of G-d that He dictated to Moses word for word, and which Moses wrote in the first Torah scroll. It incorporates all the commandments, including the Ten Commandments. It is called the Written Torah because it was to be passed throughout the generations in written form, each Torah a copy of a previous one such that all Torah scrolls are identical to that written by Moses. The Oral Torah, which was also given to Moses at Sinai, is the explanation of the commandments of the Written Torah, and was to be passed down through the generations in an unbroken oral transmission. Eventually the Oral Torah was compiled in written form in the Mishna and Talmud.
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: How do Orthodox Jews believe the Torah was revealed?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 08:12:48 PM »
Here is the discussion of how Moses wrote the final Parasha of the Torah...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/vhabroh.htm

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Dead Men Tell No Tales

"How is it possible for Moshe to be still alive and to write 'And Moshe etc. died there'? We are forced to say," R. Yehudah concludes in a B'raisa "that it was Yehoshua who wrote the last eight pesukim."

R. Shimon said to him "How can it be that the Seifer Torah should be missing even one letter - when the Torah writes 'Take this Seifer Torah'? So what we must say is that, up to this point, Hashem dictated and Moshe wrote, whereas from here on, Hashem dictated and Moshe wrote - with tears." "But this is incomprehensible?" asks the Gro. "How does R. Shimon dispense with R. Yehudah's difficulty? How can Moshe be alive and write 'And Moshe etc. died'? What does R. Shimon achieve by saying that Moshe wrote the last pesukim in tears? At the end of the day, he wrote them.

Rashi makes an attempt to answer this, writes the Gro, by explaining that, whereas by the rest of the Torah, Hashem dictated word for word to Moshe, who repeated each word in order to avoid making any mistakes, by the last eight pesukim this was not the case. There, Moshe did not repeat the words, because that would be false, to actually verbalise the words 'And Moshe died there' whilst he was still alive.

Rashi's answer is inadequate, the Gro maintains, because R. Yehudah's difficulty remains; even if there had been no speech at all, how could Moshe record a lie? And what does it help to say that Moshe wrote it in tears?

In addition, we need to understand how R. Yehudah can totally ignore R. Shimon's difficulty? How is it indeed possible, for even one letter to have been written by anyone other than Moshe Rabeinu, when the possuk in Malachi explicitly writes, "Remember the Torah of Moshe, My servant"?

Before he even begins to answer the kashya, the Gro first poses another one: why does the Gemoro ask only on the last eight pesukim in the Torah, as to how Moshe could possibly write them, etc.? Why does it not ask the same question on the whole Torah, which, according to Chazal, was written two thousand years before the world was created? But how does one explain all the events recorded in the Torah before they actually took place? Surely, this is a more serious case of lying even than the last eight pesukim in the Torah?

Incidentally, according to the Rashi quoted earlier, this is not a kashya to begin with, since it is only by the spoken word that we are concerned about lying, not about the written one.(See also final three paragraphs)
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: How do Orthodox Jews believe the Torah was revealed?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 06:19:35 AM »
I think what is generally agreed upon within the framework of Judaism is:
1. The ten commandments were given on mount Sinai witnessed by all of Israel.
2. Moses wrote the entire Torah and conveyed by speech the oral Toah, as described to him by G-d.
3. Perhaps the last paragraphs in the Torah, depicting Moses own death, were written by Joshua. 

some Hebrew sources:
http://www.daat.ac.il/DAAT/tanach/tora/maamad-2.htm
http://www.meirtv.co.il/site/content_idx.asp?idx=13013&cat_id=3738

Offline The Noachide

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Re: How do Orthodox Jews believe the Torah was revealed?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 10:42:48 AM »
To be certain, without the sin committed on that event, would the Jewish people wouldn't go through persecution and the harsh consequences throughout history? 

Offline edu

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Re: How do Orthodox Jews believe the Torah was revealed?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 11:10:17 AM »
The entire Torah was revealed to Moshe and written by Moshe, although as stated by others the very end of the Torah, dealing with the death of Moshe, according to some of our sages, was written by Yehoshua (Joshua) while others contend that Moshe also wrote that section.
The geneologies of Edom or statements such as "unto this day" are not viewed as proof to contradict our belief that Moshe wrote everything.
In Baal Haturim to Shmot/Exodus 27:20 I found that sometimes the requests of Moshe, would be taken into account, by G-d, in order to have an impact on the phrasing of the Torah.

Although the midrash on the words  "Let us make man" (Breishit/Genesis chapter 1) tells us that G-d did not agree to Moshe's request there, to change the phrasing of the verse and he forced Moshe to write the word us.