Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 31196 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2012, 03:21:31 PM »
Muman you are right about principles 9,10. And not all Jews agree on them for that reason.

Personally I think 9 is a fairy tail that cannot be positively proved from our holly scripture. As for 10 well it doesn't necessarily mean something entirely supernatural. And there is not a word about either 9 or 10 in the Torah. It's all based on a certain way of understanding certain prophetical passages in the bible and on a whole lot of imagination piled up on that over the years.

But anyway it's just my own secular opinion and I don't have any authority to say what the proper Jewish opinion should be.

Rambam, the rationalist, said that any Jew who denies Resurrection and Moshiach have no part in Olam Haba/The world to come...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2012, 03:31:25 PM »
Rambam, the rationalist, said that any Jew who denies Resurrection and Moshiach have no part in Olam Haba/The world to come...
Well the talmud prescribes karet for practically every violation of mitzvot, so, whatever...

PS I don't deny them, I just don't believe in this. I don't know if its true or false.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2012, 03:32:00 PM »
Yes, as he is not a Jew he is not capable of Lashon Hara. But what he has done is defamed an entire segment of Jewish identity.


 No, even if he was/is a Jew what he said is not Lashon Hara. If it is then please quote from the Hafetz Chaim how what he said is lashon hara.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2012, 03:32:58 PM »
Well the talmud prescribes karet for practically every violation of mitzvot, so, whatever...


 No only 36.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2012, 03:34:32 PM »
Here also are several selections from our Holy Talmud which support the idea that the body will be resurrected after death:



Selections From The Talmud

[R. Elazar HaKapar[7]] used to say: "Those who are born are destined to die: those who are dead are destined to live again" (another version: 'to be resurrected')."

All[8] Israel have a share in the World to Come....[9] The following, however, have no share therein: He who maintains that Resurrection is not a Biblical doctrine....[10]

How[11] is Resurrection deduced from the Torah?[12]

It is written,[13] "Of [these tithes] you shall give G-d's heave-offering to Aharon the priest." But would Aharon live forever?! After all, he did not enter the Land of Israel and thereby make it possible that terumah be given to him! Rather, this verse teaches that he will ultimately be resurrected, and the Jewish people will give him terumah....[14]

R. Simai[11] says: "Whence do we learn Resurrection from the Torah? - From the verse,[15] 'And I also have established My covenant with them (i.e., the Patriarchs) to give them the Land of Canaan.' The verse does not say 'to give you' but 'to give them.' [Since, as Rashi points out, the Land was given to their descendants, and has not yet been given to them personally,] their future Resurrection is thus proved from the Torah."

Sectarians[11] asked Rabban Gamliel: "From where do we know that the Holy One, blessed be He, will resurrect the dead?"

He answered them from the Torah, the Prophets and the Hagiographa....

Queen[11] Cleopatra said to R. Meir: "I know that the dead will live again, for it is written,[16] 'And they shall blossom out of the city like grass from the earth';[17] but when they arise, will they arise naked or clothed?"

He replied, "You may deduce the answer by observing a wheat grain.[18] If a grain of wheat, which is buried naked, sprouts forth in many robes, how much more so the righteous, who are buried in their garments."

An[11] emperor said to Rabban Gamliel: "You maintain that the dead will live again; but they turn to dust - and can dust come to life?!"

Thereupon the [emperor's] daughter[19] said to [Rabban Gamliel]: "Here, let me answer him. In our town there are two potters: one fashions his vessels from water, and the other from clay. Who is the more praiseworthy?"

"He who fashions them from water," replied [her father].

She concluded: "If He can fashion man from water,[20] surely he can do so from clay."[21]

According[22] to the School of R. Yishmael, [in the above exchange the emperor's daughter answered her father with] a different analogy: If glassware, made by the breath of mere flesh and blood, can be reconstituted when shattered, then how much more so man, who was created by the breath of the Holy One, blessed be He.

A[22] sectarian challenged R. Ami: "You maintain that the dead will live again; but they turn to dust - and can dust come to life?!"

He replied, "Let me offer you a parable. A mortal king commanded his servants to build him great palaces in a place where there was neither water nor earth [for making bricks]. They went and built them. After some time they collapsed, so he commanded them to rebuild them in a place which did have water and earth, but they said, 'We cannot.' The king was indignant: 'If you could build in a place that had neither water nor earth, surely you can build in a place where there is!'"[23]

R. Ami concluded: "And if you do not believe [that G-d can form creatures from dust], go out to the field and you will see a certain mouse; today it is part flesh and part dust,[24] and yet by tomorrow it has become entirely flesh. And should you say that this metamorphosis takes a long time ['and hence argue that G-d does not revive the dead in an instant' - Rashi], go up to the mountain; there you will see but one snail, whilst after tomorrow's rain the mountain will be covered with snails ['which are generated immediately' - Rashi]."

A[22] sectarian said to Geviha ben Pesisa: "Woe to you, you wicked ones, who maintain that the dead will revive! The living indeed die, but shall the dead live?!"

He replied: "Woe to you, you wicked ones, who maintain the dead will not revive. If those who never lived, now live, surely those who have lived, will live again!"

Resh Lakish[25] contrasted two verses: "One verse promises,[26] 'I will gather them in...; among them there will be the blind and the lame, the woman with child together with the woman in labor.' Another verse, however, states:[27] "Then shall the lame man leap like a hart, and the tongue of the dumb shall sing, for waters shall break forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert.' How so? - They shall rise with their defects[28] and then be healed."

Ulla[25] contrasted two verses: "It is written,[29] 'He will destroy death forever, and G-d will wipe away tears from all faces,' whilst elsewhere it is written,[30] 'For a child shall die a hundred years old....' However, this presents no difficulty: one verse refers to Jews, the other to heathens. But what business have heathens there? - The reference is to those of whom it is written,[31] 'And strangers shall stand and pasture your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.'"[32]

Rava[25] also contrasted two quotations: "It is written,[33] 'I kill, and I make alive.' [Rashi: 'This implies that a man is resurrected in the same state (e.g., wounded) as he was at the time of death.'] The same verse goes on to say, 'I have wounded, and I heal!' [Rashi: 'This implies that a wounded man is resurrected whole.'] Yet there is no contradiction here, for in this verse the Holy One, blessed be He, is saying: 'What I kill I make alive' [i.e., in the same state], and 'What I have wounded, I then heal.'"[34]

On[25] the verse,33 "I kill, and I make alive," our Sages commented: "One might understand this to mean, 'I kill one person and give life to another,' as is the way of the world, ['so that one man dies and another is born' - Rashi]. The same verse therefore goes on to say, 'I have wounded, and I heal.' Just as wounding and healing [obviously] refer to the same person, so putting to death and bringing to life refer to the same person. This is an answer to those who maintain that Resurrection is not intimated in the Torah."

R. Meir[25] said: "From where do we learn Resurrection from the Torah? - From the verse,[35] Oz Yoshir Moshe ('Moshe and the Children of Israel then sang this song to G-d'). The literal meaning of the verb is not 'sang' but 'shall sing.' Thus Techiyas HaMeisim is taught in the Torah."[36]

R. Yehoshua ben Levi[25] said: "Where is Resurrection derived from the Torah? - From the verse,[37] Ashrei Yoshvei Beisecha, Od Yehalelucha Selah ('Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they shall praise You forever'). The verse does not say, 'they praised You,' but 'they shall praise you.' Thus Techiyas HaMeisim is taught in the Torah.

R. Chiya bar Abba[25] said in the name of R. Yochanan: "Where in the Torah do we learn of Resurrection? - From the verse,[38] 'The voice of your watchmen is raised aloft: together shall they sing.' The verb Veranenu does not mean 'sang' but 'shall sing'. Here, then, is a source in the Torah for Techiyas HaMeisim."

Rava[39] said: "Where is Resurrection derived from the Torah? - From the verse,[40] 'May Reuven live and not die.' [This seeming repetition implies:] 'May Reuven live in this world, and not die in the next."

Ravina said it is derived from this verse:3 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting contempt."[41]

R. Ashi said it is derived from this verse:4 "Now go your way to the end and rest, and you shall arise to your destiny at the end of days."

R. Tavi[39] said in the name of R. Yoshia: "What do we learn from the following text?[42] 'There are three things that are never satisfied:... the grave and the womb....' How comes the grave next to the womb? - This juxtaposition teaches you that just as the womb takes in and gives forth again, so the grave takes in and will give forth again. Moreover, if the womb which takes in silently gives forth with loud noise [i.e., the crying of the infant], does it not stand to reason that the grave which takes in with a loud noise [i.e., the wailing of the mourners], will give forth [those who are revived] with a loud noise?[43] Here is an answer for those who deny that Techiyas HaMeisim is taught in the Torah."

Tanna dvei Eliyahu[39] states: "The righteous whom G-d will resurrect will not revert to dust, for it is said,[44] 'And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and he who remains in Jerusalem shall be called holy: everyone in Jerusalem who is inscribed for life.' Just as the Holy One endures forever, so too shall they endure forever."

Three[45] keys have not been entrusted to an agent: the keys to birth, rain and Resurrection.[46]

R. Eleazar[47] said: "The illiterate will not be resurrected, for it is written,[48] 'The dead will not live...,' but since this might be assumed to refer to all, the verse goes on to say, 'The shades of the dead shall not rise,' thus alluding specifically to him who is lax in studying the words of the Torah."

Said R. Yochanan to him: "It gives no satisfaction to their Master that you should speak of such people in this manner.[49] That text speaks of a man who was so lax as to worship idols!"

Replied [R. Elazar]: "Then let me base my exposition [to the same effect] on another text. It is written,[50] '[Your dead shall live, my dead body shall arise; awake and sing, you who repose in the dust.] For Your dew is a dew of light, and the earth shall cast down the shades of the dead.' This means that he who makes use of the light of the Torah, him will the light[51] of the Torah revive, but as to him who does not make use of the light of the Torah, him will the light of the Torah not revive."

Observing however, that [R. Yochanan] was [still] distressed, [R. Elazar] said to him: "Master, I have found a remedy for [the illiterate] in the Torah, for it is written,[52] 'But you who cleave to the L-rd your G-d are all alive today.' Now is it possible to cleave to the Divine Presence, concerning Whom it is written,[53] 'For the L-rd your G-d is a consuming fire'?! The meaning is this: Any man who marries his daughter to a scholar, invests on behalf of scholars, or benefits scholars from his estate is regarded by the Torah as if he had cleaved to the Divine Presence."

R. Chiya bar Yosef[47] said: "A time will come when the righteous will break through the soil and rise up in Jerusalem, for it is written,16 'And they shall blossom out of the city like grass from the earth'[17] - and 'city' can allude only to Jerusalem, as in the phrase,[54] 'For I shall defend this city.'"




7) Avos ("Ethics of the Fathers") 4:22.
8) Sanhedrin 90a, in the mishnah.
9) See at length in ch. 5 and in Appendix 2 (below). See also Rashi on the above-quoted mishnah. Midrash Shmuel on Avos understands Rashi to mean - and Bartenura holds likewise - that although the previous chapter of Sanhedrin referred to those liable for capital punishment, they too have a share in the World to Come.
In the Hebrew text, the literal translation of the above-quoted phrase is not "in the World to Come" but "to the World to Come". See Margaliyos HaYam, citing Ruach Chaim, for an explanation of this observation and others.

The phrase "to the World to Come" calls to mind a teaching of the Rebbe Rayatz on the following phrase from the Mishnah (Berachos 1:5) that is quoted in the Haggadah: "The phrase 'All the days of your life' includes (lit., 'is to bring') the Messianic Era." The plain meaning of this phrase is that the Exodus is to be recalled not only during the days of our present life, but even in the days of the Messianic Era. Noting the literal meaning of the verb lehavi ("to bring"), the Rebbe Rayatz perceived an additional teaching in these words: Throughout all the days of your life, your avodah should be directed to bringing about the days of Mashiach.

Along these lines, in the phrase "All Israel have a share to the World to Come" one may perhaps find a hint that every Jew should play an active role in hastening the advent of the World to Come.

10) Rashi comments: "I.e., he denies the validity of the Scriptural interpretations - at the [non-literal] level of derush - through which the Gemara below proceeds to derive Scriptural authority for the concept of Resurrection. Even if he concedes and believes that the dead will be resurrected, but denies that this belief is alluded to in the Torah, he is a heretic (kofer). Since he denies its Biblical source, of what value to us is his faith? From where does he know that this is the case? Accordingly, he is unequivocally considered a heretic."
The author of Beer Sheva states that the above thought is originally quoted in Yad Ramah in the name of Rabbeinu Shlomo. See also the Responsa of Rashba, sec. 9.

11) Sanhedrin 90b.
12) In the expositions that follow, the word "Torah" sometimes embraces the entire Tanach. See at length in Margaliyos HaYam on Sanhedrin 92a, sec. 3.
13) Bamidbar 18:28.
14) See ch. 11 below.
15) Shmos 6:4. See Maharsha and Rif on Ein Yaakov.
The Gemara in Sanhedrin 90b quotes a similar verse (Devarim 11:21, which is read in the course of the daily Shema) as part of Rabban Gamliel's response to the heretics. Ben Yehoyada (on Sanhedrin, loc. cit.) discusses why Rabban Gamliel did not instead refer his disputants to the earlier verse in Shmos.

16) Tehillim 72:16.
17) Citing Kesubbos 111a, Rashi teaches that the righteous will pass through subterranean tunnels and be resurrected in Jerusalem. See ch. 7 below.
18) The Gemara often draws analogies with the wheat grain. (In Kesubbos 111b the Gemara cites the same answer in the name of R. Chiya bar Yosef.) Ben Yehoyada (on Sanhedrin 91a) points out that arguments of this kind are intended merely to provide additional support for beliefs which are based on Biblical verses. He aptly quotes the verse (Devarim 8:3), "Man does not live by bread alone: man lives on that which comes forth from G-d's mouth," and concludes: Ultimately, our faith is not nourished by arguments based on a grain of wheat, but by the words that come forth from G-d's mouth.
19) Why did she interject? Ben Yehoyada explains that since she was afraid that Rabban Gamliel might say that gentiles would not be resurrected, she offered her own inoffensive answer. He goes on to explain that the emperor in fact believed in G-d, but he was perplexed by the concept of Resurrection, for it appeared to defy the principle that "there is nothing new under the sun" (Koheles 1:9). Hence his daughter's answer: any process which already exists may be a prototype for Resurrection.
20) Rashi: "From a drop of semen which resembles water."
21) See Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XVIII, p. 247.
22) Sanhedrin 91a.
23) Rashi offers two alternative ways of understanding this parable: (a) If G-d can create man from a small drop which is almost intangible, surely He can create him from dust; (b) G-d created the entire universe out of chaos.
24) Margaliyos HaYam cites Tiferes Yisrael on Chullin 9:6 to the effect that such a mouse exists in Egypt.
25) Sanhedrin 91b.
26) Yirmeyahu 31:8.
27) Yeshayahu 35:6.
28) And thus be identifiable (Bereishis Rabbah 95:1) See also Margaliyos HaYam, and ch. 9 below.
29) Yeshayahu 25:8.
30) Ibid. 65:20.
31) Ibid. 61:5.
32) See ch. 10 below.
33) Devarim 32:39.
34) Rashi: "As with the above teaching [of Resh Lakish]."
35) Shmos 15:1.
36) Margaliyos HaYam cites many sources for this teaching in the Zohar.
37) Tehillim 84:5.
38) Yeshayahu 52:8.
39) Sanhedrin 92a.
40) Devarim 33:6.
41) "The verse does not say 'all who sleep...shall awaken,' because this... would include all of mankind, and G-d made this promise only to Israel; hence the verse says, 'Many of those who sleep...shall awaken.' Moreover: the phrase, 'some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting contempt,' does not mean that among those who are resurrected some will be rewarded and some punished, for those who deserve punishment will not be resurrected at the time of the Redemption. Rather, it means that those who awaken will have everlasting life, and those who will not awaken will be destined to reproach and everlasting contempt. For all the righteous [including those] who repented, will live; only the unbelieving and those who died without repentance will remain. All this will happen at the time of the Redemption." - R. Saadiah Gaon, Emunos VeDeos, ch. 7.
See also Ibn Ezra (ad loc.); Rambam, Peirush HaMishnah, on Sanhedrin, ch. 10; Ramban, Shaar HeGemul, ch. 11; Or HaShem, Part 3, 4:4, p. 77. See, however, Abarbanel, Maayanei HaYeshuah, p. 11a.

42) Mishlei 30:15, 16.
43) Rashi cites the verse (Yeshayahu 27:13), "And it shall be on that day, that a great Shofar shall be sounded...." The Midrash entitled Osios deRabbi Akiva elaborates (sec. 9): "How will the A-mighty resurrect the dead in the time to come? He will take up a Shofar a thousand cubits long and will sound it, and it will reverberate from one end of the world to another. With the first blast the world will be in an uproar; with the second, the earth will split," and so on. See also Pirkei deRabbi Eliezer, sec. 34.
44) Yeshayahu 4:3.
45) Sanhedrin 113a.
46) Cf. the mishnah at the end of Tractate Sotah, "Resurrection comes through Eliyahu (the Prophet Elijah)." (According to Emek HaMelech, Shaar Olam HaTohu, sec. 29, this means that the key to the dew of Resurrection was entrusted to the hands of Eliyahu.) The Jerusalem Talmud (Shekalim 3:3) states, "Resurrection brings about [the coming of] Eliyahu." See the comment of Ran on Avodah Zarah 20b.
47) Kesubbos 111b. See also Tanna dvei Eliyahu, sec. 5.
48) Yeshayahu 26:14.
49) "G-d does not desire that you judge Israel so harshly" (Rashi on the same sentence in Sanhedrin 111a).
50) Yeshayahu 26:19.
51) A footnote in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XI, p. 193, observes that Yalkut Shimoni on this verse writes that "the dew of the Torah will revive him"; so, too, Tanya, ch. 36. See also: Jerusalem Talmud, Berachos 5:2; Shabbos 88b; Likkutei Torah, Parshas Haazinu, p. 73c.
The maamar entitled Samchuni (in Sefer HaMaamarim 5660) explains that or Torah ("the light of the Torah") signifies razin (the secrets of the Torah) while tal Torah ("the dew of the Torah") signifies razin derazin (the innermost secrets of the Torah).

52) Devarim 4:4.
53) Ibid., v. 24.
54) II Melachim 19:34.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2012, 03:35:18 PM »
No only 36.
If you miss one prayer you get karet. So that's pretty severe, if you take it at face value.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2012, 03:38:04 PM »
My argument is that it is wrong to just say that Jewish mysticism is some kind of avodah zarah... It most obviously is not.

To impugn the several Jewish groups such as Chassidim and Sephardim by saying that such beliefs are un-Jewish is simply slander. It is not based in truth and it is an attack on the deep seated beliefs of a good segment of the religious, righteous, Jews of this world.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2012, 03:39:52 PM »
I find it funny that a Rationalist doesn't find it odd to believe in Angels and in Miracles which the Torah and the Oral law, and even RAMBAM discusses. Today a 'rationalist' who needs a rational answer for every mitzvot would find RAMBAM to be not so rational when it comes to two of his THIRTEEN PRINCIPLES, these being:

9) I believe with absolute faith in the ressurection of the dead
10) I believe with absolute faith in the coming of Moshiach, and though he delays I wait every day.

These two, where are they in the Torah? Neither the Ressurection nor Moshiach coming are discussed unless you look into deeper sources such as the Talmud.

 - The Rambam discusses angels and says that they exist in prophetic visions, or prophetic slumber.
 - Ressurection and gilgul are different things. And the Rambam does bring down mention of ressurection in scripture as well from a number of places (See his treatise in full and not just the 13 princliples brought down from the outside).
- Moshiah is not an irrational phenomenom. Check the Rambam he descibes it in completly worldly affairs and natural process. He calls those who believe in it happeing with open miracles and things like that as mitapshim.(fools).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2012, 03:41:38 PM »
If you miss one prayer you get karet. So that's pretty severe, if you take it at face value.

 No not true. This isn't even written or implied. What are you talking about?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2012, 03:43:43 PM »
So Muman, if Tehiyas Hamesim is such a high and important principle that denying it is like denying the Torah, how comes it is not mentioned once in the Torah, excepts *maybe* in hints like you posted above.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2012, 03:47:03 PM »
So Muman, if Tehiyas Hamesim is such a high and important principle that denying it is like denying the Torah, how comes it is not mentioned once in the Torah, excepts *maybe* in hints like you posted above.

 He misquoted it, The ressurection of the dead is mentioned in the Torah in a number of places, the Rambam brings them down as well (for example from Isaia, and other places).
 
  What we were arguing is something else, it was about gilgulim- reincarnations. These are different things entirely.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2012, 03:52:03 PM »
So Muman, if Tehiyas Hamesim is such a high and important principle that denying it is like denying the Torah, how comes it is not mentioned once in the Torah, excepts *maybe* in hints like you posted above.

It is mentioned in the Talmud many times.

Your question has  been asked to Rabbis before... I will attempt to find the answer for you.

Basically the answer I remember is that the Torah is a book which intends on telling us how to live, not that we should do the mitzvahs for the reward of the afterlife, or to be righteous to merit resurrection.... The Torah concentrates on being a book of life... The Talmud and the Oral tradition on the other hand address the topic of Resurrection.

I have also heard it said that these things were not written down because of the fact that other religions would take these concepts and twist them {as we witnessed with Christianity and then Islam}...


See this: http://www.puretorah.com/resources/The%20Resurrection%20of%20the%20Dead%20-%20Rabbi%20Kin.pdf

Quote
We have sources in the Torah that allude to the resurrection. It is not explicitly written in the Torah because Hashem doesn't want us to serve him for ulterior motives. The verse says in the Torah that Hashem tells Moshe, you are about to leave this world to go to your forefathers, but “they will rise”. This refers to the resurrection of the dead. Similarly, the verse states“then Moses will sing”. Meaning, there will be a time in the future, at the resurrection of the dead, that Moses will sing again. Also it says “I will fulfill my promise to the forefathers” (they will see the land of Israel in its full glory), how will Hashem fulfill his promise? When the forefathers resurrect. And the verse also says “I will strike them dead and I will bring him back alive.” Just like G-d can bring about someone's death, he can bring someone back alive.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2012, 03:54:16 PM »
If you miss one prayer you get karet. So that's pretty severe, if you take it at face value.

 Here is the list of the 36 for karet. Mostly sex crimes but other things as well.
http://halakhah.com/pdf/kodoshim/Krithoth.pdf
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2012, 03:55:15 PM »
Here is the list of the 36 for karet. Mostly sex crimes but other things as well.
http://halakhah.com/pdf/kodoshim/Krithoth.pdf

Yes I have NEVER heard that missing a prayer invokes Kaaret...

Maybe the punishment is Lashes, but I do not know a source of that...


Quote
Exempt from Lashes

* Shavuot 3b

Mesechta Shavuot, which we begin this week, follows Mesechta Makkot, and the reason given in the gemara for the sequence is based on a certain similarity between the last mishna of the former and the first of the latter.

There is a topic in the opening pages of this mesechta that recalls the subject of the punishment of lashes so elaborately discussed in its predecessor. Although the general rule is that one who violates a prohibition of the Torah is punished by lashes, there are exceptions. One of them is the case of someone who took an oath to eat a loaf of bread today and failed to do so. Despite the fact that he is guilty of transgressing the command to avoid false oaths, he is not liable for lashes. Two different approaches are offered by the Sages for this exemption.

Rabbi Yochanan's position is that lashes are due only for an active violation and since failure to eat the bread is a passive one it is not punished by lashes.

Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish (Reish Lakish) sees this exemption as the result of an impossibility to definitively warn the transgressor, an absolute requirement for any punishment administered by the court. Since the witnesses issuing a warning that he must eat the bread or be guilty of violating his oath cannot be certain at that moment that he will not eat sometime during the day, such a warning cannot make him liable for lashes.

These two explanations also apply to the case of one who transgresses the prohibition against leaving any of the flesh of the Korban Pesach overnight. In this case, however, we find a third reason for exemption from lashes. Rabbi Yehuda states that since the Torah commanded one who did leave such flesh overnight to burn it, we consider this as the Torah's way of saying that such burning is the atonement and no other atonement is necessary.

http://www.torah.org/learning/rambam/talmudtorah/tt7.1.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2012, 03:59:21 PM »
I was indeed wrong, I referred to rashi on bavli page 1 and rashi mentioned karet as a punishment for the kohen who ate from the korban on the day after.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2012, 04:02:12 PM »
He misquoted it, The ressurection of the dead is mentioned in the Torah in a number of places, the Rambam brings them down as well (for example from Isaia, and other places).
 
  What we were arguing is something else, it was about gilgulim- reincarnations. These are different things entirely.
Isaiah is not the Torah but Neviim, and Daniel is not even Neviim but from Ktuvim. Isn't it strange the farther you go from Torah the more elaborate phantasy you get regarding the resurrection of the dead ?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2012, 04:07:41 PM »
Isaiah is not the Torah but Neviim, and Daniel is not even Neviim but from Ktuvim. Isn't it strange the farther you go from Torah the more elaborate phantasy you get regarding the resurrection of the dead ?

You seem uninformed because Jews consider ALL OF TANACH to be Torah...

The entire TORAH, the Chumash/5 books, the Prophets, and the Writings and the Oral Law are all considered Holy to Jews. The Word Torah means 'Teachings' it does not mean only the 5 books... We call the Five Books of Moses Chumash... The Prophets were divine in origin and we always believe that Moses was the most high of the prophets {who spoke 'face to face' with Hashem} but all Prophets {and prophecy is discussed in the Torah, and Hashem promises to send us prophets} were able to 'speak' with Hashem.

There are FUNDAMENTAL Jewish concepts. They are not invented by outsiders. The Mesorah {chain of transmission} is laid out in the Pirkie Avot and also RAMBAM records the chain of transmission of these ideas. The Oral laws are as much Torah as the Chumash, for the Torah means virtually nothing without the explanation of the Oral law.

http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/oraltorah.html

Quote
What is the Oral Torah?

As mentioned earlier, there are two "Torahs": the Written and the Oral. In Jewish tradition, both were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai and during the forty years in the desert, and taught to the whole nation. [In fact, when Judaism says "G-d gave the Torah to Moses at Sinai" it is talking only about the Oral -- otherwise, Moses should have known about the Golden Calf, and as for Korach's Rebellion, Moses should have reacted "well, we've been expecting you..."]

Both have been with us, according to Jewish sources, for all of the past 3300 years. And without both, it is impossible to fully understand traditional Jewish teaching or thought. The Written Torah, mentiones each of the Commandments, or Mitzvos, only in passing or by allusion. The Oral Law fills in the gaps.

Here is an example: "And you shall tie them as a sign on your arm and for (Totafos) between your eyes." (Deut. 6 8) This is the source for the Mitzvah of Tefillin (phylacteries - if that's any clearer), but it doesn't tell us that much. From this alone, we'd never know how to do this Mitzvah. What are we supposed to tie to the arm? With what do we tie it? What are "Totafos?" What is it a sign of? Without the Oral Law, quite simply, there's no Mitzvah of Tefillin. And there aren't too many other Mitzvos that'll make much sense either. Not, that is, without some form of commentary.

.
.
.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2012, 04:15:04 PM »
According to the Great Rationalist Rambam there were 40 generations from Rav Ashi to Moses...

From the Mishneh Torah:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/901698/jewish/Part-1.htm



Thus, there were forty generations from Rav Ashi back to Moses, our teacher, of blessed memory. They were:

1) Rav Ashi [received the tradition] from Ravva.

2) Ravva [received the tradition] from Rabbah.

3) Rabbah [received the tradition] from Rav Huna.

4) Rav Huna [received the tradi­tion] from Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and Shemuel.

5) Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and She­muel [received the tradition] from Rabbenu Hakadosh.

6) Rabbenu Hakadosh [received the tradition] from Rabbi Shimon, his father.

7) Rabbi Shimon [received the tra­dition] from Rabban Gamliel, his father.

8) Rabban Gamliel [received the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father.

9) Rabban Shimon [received the tradition] from Rabban Gamliel, the elder, his father.

10) Rabban Gamliel, the elder, [re­ceived the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father.

11) Rabban Shimon [received the Tradition] from Hillel, his father, and Shammai.

12) Hillel and Shammai [received the tradition] from Shemayah and Avtalion.

13) Shemayah and Avtalion [re­ceived the tradition] from Yehudah and Shimon [ben Shatach].

14) Yehudah and Shimon [received the tradition] from Yehoshua ben Perachiah and Nittai of Arbel.

15) Yehoshua and Nittai [received the tradition] from Yosse ben Yo'ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan.

16) Yosse ben Yo'ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan [received the tradi­tion] from Antignos.

17) Antignos [received the tradi­tion] from Shimon the Just.

18) Shimon the Just [received the tradition] from Ezra.

19) Ezra [received the tradition] from Baruch.

20) Baruch [received the tradition] from Jeremiah.

21) Jeremiah [received the tradi­tion] from Tzefaniah.

22) Tzefaniah [received the tradi­tion] from Chabbakuk.

23) Chabbakuk [received the tradition] from Nachum.

24) Nachum [received the tradition] from Yoel.

25) Yoel [received the tradition] from Michah.

26) Michah [received the tradition] from Isaiah.

27) Isaiah [received the tradition] from Amos.

28) Amos [received the tradition] from Hoshea.

29) Hoshea [received the tradition] from Zechariah.

30) Zechariah [received the tradition] from Yehoyada.

31) Yehoyada [received the tradition] from Elisha.

32) Elisha [received the tradition] from Elijah.

33) Elijah [received the tradition] from Achiah.

34) Achiah [received the tradition] from David.

35) David [received the tradition] from Shemuel.

36) Shemuel [received the tradition] from Eli.

37) Eli [received the tradition] from Pinchas.

38) Pinchas [received the tradition] from Joshua.

39) Joshua [received the tradition] from Moses, our teacher.

40) Moses, our teacher, [received the tradition] from the Almighty.

Thus, [the source of] all these people's knowledge is G-d, the Lord of Israel.

From the Mishneh Torah:

Quote
Rabbenu Hakadosh composed the Mishnah. From the days of Moses, our teacher, until Rabbenu Hakadosh, no one had composed a text for the purpose of teaching the Oral Law in public. Instead, in each generation, the head of the court or the prophet of that generation would take notes of the teachings which he received from his masters for himself, and teach them verbally in public. Similarly, according to his own potential, each individual would write notes for himself of what he heard regarding the explanation of the Torah, its laws, and the new concepts that were deduced in each generation concerning laws that were not communicated by the oral tradition, but rather deduced using one of the thirteen principles of Biblical exegesis and accepted by the high court.

This situation continued until [the age of] Rabbenu Hakadosh. He collected all the teachings, all the laws, and all the explanations and commentaries that were heard from Moses, our teacher, and which were taught by the courts in each generation concerning the entire Torah. From all these, he composed the text of the Mishnah. He taught it to the Sages in public and revealed it to the Jewish people, who all wrote it down. They spread it in all places so that the Oral Law would not be forgotten by the Jewish people.

Why did Rabbenu Hakadosh make [such an innovation] instead of perpetuating the status quo? Because he saw the students becoming fewer, new difficulties constantly arising, the Roman Empire18 spreading itself throughout the world and becoming more powerful, and the Jewish people wandering and becoming dispersed to the far ends of the world. [Therefore,] he composed a single text that would be available to everyone, so that it could be studied quickly and would not be forgotten.19 Throughout his entire life, he and his court taught the Mishnah to the masses.

These are the great Sages who were part of the court of Rabbenu Hakadosh and who received the tradition from him: His sons, Shimon and Gamliel, Rabbi Effess, Rabbi Chanina ben Chama, Rabbi Chiyya, Rav, Rabbi Yannai, bar Kafra, Shemuel, Rabbi Yochanan, Rabbi Hoshaia. Thousands and myriads of other sages received the tradition from [Rabbenu Hakadosh] together with these great sages.

Even though all of the eleven sages mentioned above received the tradition from Rabbenu Hakadosh and attended his study sessions, [there are differences between them. At that time,] Rabbi Yochanan was of lesser stature. Afterwards, he became a disciple of Rabbi Yannai and received instruction from him. Similarly, Rav received the tradition from Rabbi Yannai, and Shemuel received the tradition from Rabbi Chanina ben Chama.20

See also : http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/

Quote
http://www.beingjewish.com/mesorah/howtoask.html

Asking Questions

Judaism is the way of life that Hashem gave us at Mount Sinai, and taught to us in the Sinai Desert.

It includes a Written Torah and an Oral Torah.

It has always included an Oral Torah, and in fact, some of the Commandments were first taught to us orally before we had them in writing. But by and the large, we were taught both at the same time. Hashem would recite a paragraph of the Written Torah to Moses, telling him what to write, letter by letter. Hashem would then teach Moses the details of that Law, along with the deeper meanings, the applications of that Law, and all concepts related to it.

It is impossible to fulfill the Commandments of the Torah without the Oral Torah, because we need to know those details.

On the other hand, if we had only the Oral Torah, it would be possible to fulfill the Commandments. The Written Torah's function is primarily to prevent the Oral Torah from being forgotten.

The Written Torah is similar to a series of very brief notes a student writes at a lecture. I attended a class once in which I wrote in my notebook: "DY = 2; SY = 1." Do you have any idea what that means? How could you? It means: "A double yellow line in the middle of the road means it is a two-way road, a single yellow line means it is a one-way road." When you know what was said in the class, the notes make perfect sense to you. If you do not know what was said at the lecture, you cannot understand the notes.

Hashem created the Torah two thousand years before He created the universe. That refers to both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. The Oral Torah is the extended "lecture." The Written Torah contains the brief notes that make certain that we do not forget the "lecture." Thus, in a sense, the Oral Torah gives us the context of the Written Torah.

I sometimes get questions from people who insist that I prove something from "Scriptural sources." Christians, and those who follow their example, will accept only what is written in the Written Torah. (Which is surprising, considering the fact that they don't obey the Scriptures anyway.)

Well, sorry, but quoting Scripture is not necessary. Judaism includes both a Written Torah and an Oral Torah, and it has always included both. If it is in the Oral Torah, it is Torah, and that's a good enough source. If neither the Written nor the Oral Torah mention something, then it is not Torah. But if the Talmud teaches something, it is Torah, and therefore it is Judaism.
.
.
.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2012, 04:29:17 PM »
You seem uninformed because Jews consider ALL OF TANACH to be Torah...

The entire TORAH, the Chumash/5 books, the Prophets, and the Writings and the Oral Law are all considered Holy to Jews. The Word Torah means 'Teachings' it does not mean only the 5 books... We call the Five Books of Moses Chumash... The Prophets were divine in origin and we always believe that Moses was the most high of the prophets {who spoke 'face to face' with Hashem} but all Prophets {and prophecy is discussed in the Torah, and Hashem promises to send us prophets} were able to 'speak' with Hashem.

There are FUNDAMENTAL Jewish concepts. They are not invented by outsiders. The Mesorah {chain of transmission} is laid out in the Pirkie Avot and also RAMBAM records the chain of transmission of these ideas. The Oral laws are as much Torah as the Chumash, for the Torah means virtually nothing without the explanation of the Oral law.

http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/primer/torah/oraltorah.html
This is false revisionism. Only the Torah is written on a scroll by hand and kept in its special cabin in the synagogue. It is clearly obvious that the Torah trumps Neviim which trumps Ketuvim. All are holy, but there are very obvious ranking.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2012, 04:30:46 PM »
So you admit there are many things in Judaism which are 'EXTRA-RATIONAL' meaning beyond a rational explanation.

Many Jewish laws are considered Chukim, meaning laws which have no rational explanation.... I would like to hear a rationalist give a good reason for how the Red Heifer works {transmitting impurity from the sinner to the kohen}? Even the greatest Jewish sages could not comprehend this law, and yet people expect rational explanations?

Obviously we are aware you did not come up with questions about the Zohar on your own. I have heard the arguments many times, bother here in the forum, and elsewhere.

I listen and learn from Rabbis and form my understanding based on whether the concept is accepted or rejected by the majority of the Rabbis I know. Hashem granted the right to determine halacha to the Sanhedrin and the sages according to certain precepts {called Exegesis}.

You mention damage done by Zohar? What is the damage according to you? I wonder just how long you have studied the Torah and how many Rabbis you have consulted before making your pronouncements on Zohar and mysticism in general.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2012, 04:31:35 PM »
This is false revisionism. Only the Torah is written on a scroll by hand and kept in its special cabin in the synagogue. It is clearly obvious that the Torah trumps Neviim which trumps Ketuvim. All are holy, but there are very obvious ranking.

No sir. You are the revisionist... The entire Torah is divine according to Orthodox Jewish belief.

So it is only holy if it is written on a scroll? Who said this? Is this something you made up? I guess then you consider Megillat Esther Holy and not Isiaah because Esther is written on a scroll... And Hashems name doesn't even appear once in the Megillah...

You realize that the Mezuzah and Tefillin are also written on a scroll? And the Torah doesn't mention them except through the Oral law and cryptic mention in a couple of places {writing a sign on the doorpost, and binding this on the head and on the arm}..


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2012, 04:40:20 PM »
Rationalism means having a rational explanaton for the Torah, not just accepting that what it says is true. Judaism NEVER expects a Jew to believe based on blind faith. As a matter of fact the 1st Commandment of the Aseret HaDibroth is a command to KNOW that there is a Hashem. The only way to Know this is to inquire of the matter, to ask questions, and there are answers to all questions in the Torah.

The Chumash is only the 'Cliff Notes' of the entire Jewish scriptures...


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rationalism
Quote

3) Theology . the doctrine that human reason, unaided by divine revelation, is an adequate or the sole guide to all attainable religious truth.

A belief or theory that opinions and actions should be based on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2012, 04:41:48 PM »
Zelhar- read the Rambam's treatise on ressurection of the dead. Many thought that he perhaps also was against the idea of ressurection of the dead, but he says otherwise and brings many proofs from the Tannach, I don't know them off the head but you can do the research maybe includes the 5 books of Moshe as well, I don't remember. Either way we beleive in all the true Prophets after Moshe as well and to deny them goes against the 5 books as well which say to accept a true prophet that will be and speak in the name of G-D (of-course after proper investigation of which we knoe that people like Isaia and Ezekiel are included in the prophets of
G-D).

 The ressurection of the dead doesn't have to be "irrational". I believe that Rav Ari Kaplan discusses it in one of his books (something to do with ressurection) and says it's part of the natural world. Also we can look at DNA and other things.
  Also not long ago I saw it mentioned on a science show as well in the show "morgan freeman through the wormhole " Not sure which episode.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2012, 04:52:30 PM »
Listen guys, when you read the Torah, the prophesies are very clear for example about the inheritance of Eretz Israel as well as punishment and exile for failing to follow the commandments. These phrases one may not believe in but cannot deny their meaning. But all the "proofs" about after life and resurrection stem from much more opaque texts that can be understood allegorically and in different contexts.

Do you take literally the phrase "The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, "  seriously ?! Will the Leopard also "lie" with the goat on the other meaning will intermarry and spawn a hybrid ?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Dor Daim, the Zohar
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2012, 04:54:44 PM »
Listen guys, when you read the Torah, the prophesies are very clear for example about the inheritance of Eretz Israel as well as punishment and exile for failing to follow the commandments. These phrases one may not believe in but cannot deny their meaning. But all the "proofs" about after life and resurrection stem from much more opaque texts that can be understood allegorically and in different contexts.

Do you take literally the phrase "The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, "  seriously ?! Will the Leopard also "lie" with the goat on the other meaning will intermarry and spawn a hybrid ?

The sages, who have spent their life studying, have passed down the interpretation. No sage ever took that passage literally. This is not an argument... But the Oral law clearly clarifies things which are opaque {as you call them}...

What you appear to be denying is that there is a Mesorah or Transmission of Torah teaching... But there is a well documented chain of transmission which goes back to Moses. You have issues with this... That is your issue which you need to resolve...


Regarding the Wolf lying with the lamb, there is a precedent when it did happen... Noahs Ark...

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/402077/jewish/Peace-by-Choice.htm

Quote
Noah and the Messianic Age

The prophet Isaiah promised that in the messianic age, animals of prey will set their aggression aside. “The wolf shall live with the lamb, and the leopard lie down with the goat; the calf, the cub and the ox will be together, and a child will lead them. The cow and the bear will graze together . . . the lion and the cattle will both eat straw."2

This particular miracle already occurred once before in history. In Noah’s ark, during the deluge, the animals tamed their aggression and lived together. The lion did not prey on the sheep and the tiger did not stalk the lamb.

The former Chief Rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Yisrael Meyer Lau, posed the following question. If this miracle did not herald the messianic age when it occurred the first time, why was Isaiah convinced that it would herald the messianic age the next time it occurred?

In response, Rabbi Lau suggested that a distinction can be drawn between that which occurred in Noah’s ark and the miracles of the messianic age.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14