Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Jews who believe that Reward and Punishment are only based on Torah Study
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on April 26, 2012, 05:41:07 PM ---Maybe you should explain your opinion regarding the Talmud before we continue. It seems many times you are arguing that the Talmud is wrong and that so-and-so Rabbi is right. I am of the belief that the Talmud is a more reliable source for Jewish wisdom than any later sage. Most of Orthodox and Rabbinic Judaism hold the Talmud in very high esteem at the same level as Tanach.
Your understanding, in my opinion, does not give the Talmud the respect that it should be given. It is not just a bunch of fairy tales or things that the Rabbis just wanted to write down for the fun of it. Each and every tractate contains volumes and volumes of lessons for us and our future generations.
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R' Shrira Gaon brought down what he did from his version of the Talmud. R' Shrira Gaon is well known to be highly reliable. It is said about him- if we cant rely on R 'Shrira Gaon then on who'm can we rely on?
The Talmud as well has and had a number of censors, both internal and external who discouraged furthur things like rebellion against other nations. It just wasn't what needed to be done right after the destruction.
What you said about the students (and its 12,000 according to R' Shrira Gaon and the Meiri as well by the way) can as well be applied to R' Akiva and the other martyrs as well. The Rambam says that R' Akiva was the arms bearer of Bar Kochba, meaning he fully supported the great revolt. Don't you think he would put his money where his mouth is and send his students to fight as well? Also the great city of Beter (or Beitar) had all completly religious warriors.
And about them dying which makes more sense, them dying just for disrespecting eachother (which by the way is disrespectful for us to say about them) and goes against G-D's justice OR them dying gloriously and getting the respect they deserve- them dying as warriors fighting Roman oppression. Their is no higher way to die then for al pi kiddush Hashem.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on April 26, 2012, 09:54:50 PM --- R' Shrira Gaon brought down what he did from his version of the Talmud. R' Shrira Gaon is well known to be highly reliable. It is said about him- if we cant rely on R 'Shrira Gaon then on who'm can we rely on?
The Talmud as well has and had a number of censors, both internal and external who discouraged furthur things like rebellion against other nations. It just wasn't what needed to be done right after the destruction.
What you said about the students (and its 12,000 according to R' Shrira Gaon and the Meiri as well by the way) can as well be applied to R' Akiva and the other martyrs as well. The Rambam says that R' Akiva was the arms bearer of Bar Kochba, meaning he fully supported the great revolt. Don't you think he would put his money where his mouth is and send his students to fight as well? Also the great city of Beter (or Beitar) had all completly religious warriors.
And about them dying which makes more sense, them dying just for disrespecting eachother (which by the way is disrespectful for us to say about them) and goes against G-D's justice OR them dying gloriously and getting the respect they deserve- them dying as warriors fighting Roman oppression. Their is no higher way to die then for al pi kiddush Hashem.
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We don't need Rambam to know that R. Akiva was a prime supporter of Bar Kochba... This comes straight from the Talmud...
Also I don't necessarily agree that the students of Rabbi Akiva were trained as warriors as Bar Kochbahs men were trained. There are legends about how mighty Bar Kochba was and his army was able to fend off the massive Roman army..
http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48944706.html
--- Quote ---From the letters and other historical data, we learn that in 132 CE, Bar Kosiba organized a large guerilla army and succeeded in actually throwing the Romans out of Jerusalem and Israel and establishing, albeit for a very brief period, an independent Jewish state. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 97b) states that he established an independent kingdom that lasted for two and half years.
Bar Kosiba's success caused many to believe ― among them Rabbi Akiva, one of the wisest and holiest of Israel's rabbis ― that he could be the Messiah. He was nicknamed "Bar Kochba" or "Son of Star," an allusion to a verse in the Book of Numbers (24:17): "there shall come a star out of Jacob." This star is understood to refer to the Messiah.
Bar Kochba did not turn out to be the Messiah, and later the rabbis wrote that his real name was Bar Kosiva meaning "Son of a Lie" ― highlighting the fact that he was a false Messiah.
At the time, however, Bar Kochba ― who was a man of tremendous leadership abilities ― managed to unite the entire Jewish people around him. Jewish accounts describe him as a man of tremendous physical strength, who could uproot a tree while riding on a horse. This is probably an exaggeration, but he was a very special leader and undoubtedly had messianic potential, which is what Rabbi Akiva recognized in him.
Jewish sources list Bar Kochba's army at 100,000 men, but even if that is an overestimate and he had half that number, it was still a huge force.
United, the Jews were a force to be reckoned with. They overran the Romans, threw them out of the land of Israel, declared independence and even minted coins. That is a pretty unique event in the history of the Roman Empire.
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And again I assert that Hashem doesn't want us to die for him. That is not a message which is taught by Judaism {although it is a muslim tenet}. Everyone dies for a reason and there must be a reason that these students died. I personally don't accept your idea that they accomplished anything by dying for 'kiddush Hashem'. Hashem must have been disappointed about something concerning their service.
You know that the Talmud also explains why both the first and second Temples were destroyed. I will assume that you don't agree with the Talmudic explanation that the second Temple was destroyed because of 'Baseless Hatred' or Sinat Chinam. I do accept that explanation.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on April 26, 2012, 10:20:56 PM ---Also I don't necessarily agree that the students of Rabbi Akiva were trained as warriors as Bar Kochbahs men were trained.
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It was a Milhemit Mitzva, soo I assume (as Halacha dictates) that everyone was involved. And since R' Akiva supported him even getting the title of "arms bearer" I would assume he put his money where his mouth is and sent his men to fight as well.
- their is also a problem today, especially after this long galut that people cannot relate to Jews much the less scholars fighting in wars. The situation and mentality was different back then.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on April 26, 2012, 10:28:01 PM ---
It was a Milhemit Mitzva, soo I assume (as Halacha dictates) that everyone was involved. And since R' Akiva supported him even getting the title of "arms bearer" I would assume he put his money where his mouth is and sent his men to fight as well.
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Would he send ALL OF THE STUDENTS without making sure that some would survive in case there was a defeat? You realize after these students died there were NO Rabbis left and Akiva had to start over with only five students...
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on April 26, 2012, 10:29:46 PM ---Would he send ALL OF THE STUDENTS without making sure that some would survive in case there was a defeat? You realize after these students died there were NO Rabbis left and Akiva had to start over with only five students...
--- End quote ---
Apparently YES. Just as Avraham sent his students to save Lot, knowing or even thinking that they would all die (together with him). Besides it didn't even have to be him sending them. The Romans could have gone after them knowing full well who they were and that the Torah and motivation for the nation to continue was through them. It was a Shmada. It wasn't Jews sending people to fight in foreign lands. It was in their backyards soo to speak.
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