Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Jews who believe that Reward and Punishment are only based on Torah Study
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on April 26, 2012, 03:57:28 PM ---That is looking into it too much, straight up Lomdus style.
Anyway your welcome
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/304-sephirath-haomer-how-did-the-talmidhim-of-rabbi-aqiva-die
If it strikes you as unreasonable that 24,000 Tora scholars should have died in a plague because they did not treat each respectfully, then this shiur is for you. What's more, you are in good company: Rav Sharira Gaon, based on the authentic Talmudic text before him 1100 years ago, presents the matter very differently. Why some have the minhag not to do work after sunset during Sefirath HaOmer. Are the days of S'phirath Ha'Omer supposed to be a period of mourning lasting many weeks?
Sephirath HaOmer part 1
Sephirath HaOmer - Why Jews Chose to Ignore the Great Revolt
The difference in where Jews live often shapes how they think. Jews outside the Land of Israel preferred to believe that a character flaw, not Jewish nationalism, was the central event during S'phirath Ha'Omer. Should you not listen to music or make major purchases during this time?
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I have not listened to this but could you explain what they died for? Saying that they died in a war doesn't exactly say why... If they were so righteous and deserving then they should have defeated the enemy. As the Aish piece explains the combination of the two narratives is the way we can discover the most truth.
The Aish piece explains that the plague may have been the decree that they would die in the war. And I have seen others dispel this story with the fact that the Bar Kochba revolution was much earlier than when the students died {apparently towards the end of Rabbi Akivas life}.
The lesson is that our own interpersonal relations have an influence on our divine providence.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
"that the plague may have been the decree that they would die in the war. "
Plague and war- or Shmada are totally different things.
"what they died for? Saying that they died in a war doesn't exactly say why..."
For the liberation of Israel, for the honor of G-D. They died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m which is the highest level to die. What makes more sense that these greats died because they didn't respect each other or that they died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m?
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on April 26, 2012, 05:17:08 PM ---"that the plague may have been the decree that they would die in the war. "
Plague and war- or Shmada are totally different things.
"what they died for? Saying that they died in a war doesn't exactly say why..."
For the liberation of Israel, for the honor of G-D. They died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m which is the highest level to die. What makes more sense that these greats died because they didn't respect each other or that they died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m?
--- End quote ---
I have not heard this. Why would Hashem want them to die? Does he want people to sacrifice themselves? If Hashem is with them they should have been victorious. What is the reason for their death?
Your explanation sounds more like Islam than Judaism. Islam teaches that it is glorious to DIE for Hashem while Judaism stresses it is more important to LIVE for Hashem...
Did you learn anything from last weeks Parasha concerning the greats Nadav and Avihu? They too died trying to sanctify Hashems name, but they were consumed with fire, because what they did was not commanded.
muman613:
Maybe you should explain your opinion regarding the Talmud before we continue. It seems many times you are arguing that the Talmud is wrong and that so-and-so Rabbi is right. I am of the belief that the Talmud is a more reliable source for Jewish wisdom than any later sage. Most of Orthodox and Rabbinic Judaism hold the Talmud in very high esteem at the same level as Tanach.
Your understanding, in my opinion, does not give the Talmud the respect that it should be given. It is not just a bunch of fairy tales or things that the Rabbis just wanted to write down for the fun of it. Each and every tractate contains volumes and volumes of lessons for us and our future generations.
muman613:
All sources I have references say that the majority opinion is that they died by a plague. There are, as you point out, those who support Rav Shira Gaons point that they may have died in a war. I will continue to teach that the primary lesson is that the students died due to a plague but there are opinions that they died in the war...
Nobody is trying to cover up what Rav Shira Gaon says. His opinion is almost always mentioned.
--- Quote ---http://www.steinsaltz.org/learning.php?pg=Daf_Yomi&articleId=682
Traditionally, the weeks between Pesach and Shavu'ot ? the days of Sefirat ha-Omer ? are kept as days of mourning. The likely source for this tradition appears on our daf (=page), where the Gemara quotes Rabbi Akiva as teaching that even a person who studied Torah in his youth should continue to study Torah into his old age. Similarly, someone who teaches students as a young man should continue to do so even when he gets old.
To illustrate the importance of this teaching, the Gemara relates that this concept was crucial for Rabbi Akiva personally. Rabbi Akiva is said to have had 12,000 pairs of students across the land of Israel, and all of them died during the period between Pesach and Shavuot. The land was left desolate until Rabbi Akiva taught a new group of students ? Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehudah, Rabbi Yossi, Rabbi Shimon and Rabbi Elazar ben Shamu'a - who succeeded in reestablishing Torah study in Israel.
The simple reading of the Gemara makes it appear that Rabbi Akiva's students died of a plague, and most of the rishonim accept that approach. In his historical letter, Rav Sherira Ga'on offers a different explanation. He says that they died of shamda, which means a war or governmental decree. This is an apparent reference to the Bar Kokhba revolt, of which Rabbi Akiva was an enthusiastic supporter. It appears that Rabbi Akiva's students volunteered for military service under Bar Kokhba's leadership, and when the revolt was put down by the Romans with great severity, they were among the many who were killed. The Me'iri suggests that the source for the tradition of mourning during this period stems from this story. According to the ge'onim the students did not die on the 33rd day of Sefirat ha-Omer, which is why there is no mourning on that day.
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