Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Jews who believe that Reward and Punishment are only based on Torah Study
muman613:
--- Quote from: Lisa on April 26, 2012, 12:18:08 PM ---Thanks for your response.
But it still sounds harsh. I mean, I associate wickedness to being either a murderer, rapist or an adulterer. How am I wrong here?
--- End quote ---
I think the point is this:
We are all judged, we all err, the righteous are held to a higher level of judgment. Even a small error can count a great amount, witness the error of Moses {who struck the rock when told to speak to it} which resulted in his punishment of not being allowed to enter the Holy Land.
The bottom line is that Hashem exacts justice. Nobody dies who is not supposed to die... All is determined on the previous Days of Judgement.
muman613:
Here this is expressed concerning Rabbi Akivas students, 24,000 of which died for the sin of 'not respecting' the other...
http://www.beyondbt.com/2011/05/19/lag-ba%E2%80%99omer-rebbe-akivah-and-kabbalah/
--- Quote ---But putting the legalities of this time period aside there is a very difficult problem in this historical accounting. How is it possible that the 24,000 students of Rebbe Akivah were guilty of not conducting themselves with the proper respect for one another? Rebbe Akivah was the one who lived and taught to the greatest degree the foundation of “V’ahavtah L’reachah Kamochah”. How is it possible that his message wasn’t clearly established and practiced amongst his students? We can find the answer to this dilemma from our tradition. We know that there is a general rule in how Hashem deals with people in this world called “Hakadosh Baruchu Medakdek al Hatzadikim K’chut Hasa’arah” which means that G-d is actually more exacting in judgment (even to a hairsbreadth) with the righteous than he is with normal people. We know the famous Gemara in Bava Kamma 50a
,.
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The answer is of course – NO! This is a warped view of the ways of the Almighty. He doesn’t offer diplomatic immunity to his righteous ones. On the other hand, if this is true then why would anyone want to make this sacrifice and try to be so great when all that is waiting for him on the other side is being treated with such exacting judgment? The answer is that the advantage and the benefit of living life on a higher plane of completion and to such a degree of sacrifice far outweighs the comfort of being treated with greater mercy but remaining less connected to Hashem. You can’t have it both ways. The tzaddik realizes that even though he will be judged more strictly as he reaches greater levels in the service of Hashem, it is worth it because in return a deeper level of closeness and a stronger bond with the Almighty becomes available. The normal person who doesn’t make that push may be treated with more mercy and allowed a more lenient form of judgment. However, in return for that he looses out on a greater level of closeness that can only be gained by the path of the tzadik. This is the insight of this teaching about Hashem’s way with the tzadikim.
Therefore, not only is the righteous person treated with greater exactingness in judgment, but he is judged more strictly specifically in the areas where he is great. It is no coincidence at all that Rebbe Nechunia’s daughter fell into one of his wells, nor is it a coincidence that Rebbe Akivah’s students passed away specifically because they weren’t complete in the area of “Been Adam Lachaveiro” – interpersonal relationships. Specifically because Rebbe Akivah was so great in this area, he was tested and judged so strictly with regards to it. Perhaps more than anything else we focus our attention on the centrality of “Bein Adam Lachaveiro” during the Omer. This is the time that the Torah wants us to make the transition between the barley offering on the second day of Pesach to the two wheat breads of Shavuos. We discussed in another article about the significance of the counting of the Omer that the whole point that the Torah wants is for us to realize that our productivity both physically and spiritually needs to be refined from more selfish to more selfless. The more selfless a person becomes the easier it is to fulfill the precepts of “Bein Adam Lachaveiro”.
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Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on April 26, 2012, 12:42:06 PM ---Here this is expressed concerning Rabbi Akivas students, 24,000 of which died for the sin of 'not respecting' the other...
--- End quote ---
Not everyone agrees with that and that being how they died. In fact more ancient sources tell otherwise (R' Shrira Gaon) and the Meiri for example. They died in the war against rome al pi kiddush Hasem.
Also to Lisa- the sin of sleeping with a Nidda is a grave sin indeed. It is also mentioned as part of the 36 sins of getting Karet (to see the list you can open the first page of Talmud Kritot) if you request I can post a link to it.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on April 26, 2012, 02:06:11 PM --- Not everyone agrees with that and that being how they died. In fact more ancient sources tell otherwise (R' Shrira Gaon) and the Meiri for example. They died in the war against rome al pi kiddush Hasem.
Also to Lisa- the sin of sleeping with a Nidda is a grave sin indeed. It is also mentioned as part of the 36 sins of getting Karet (to see the list you can open the first page of Talmud Kritot) if you request I can post a link to it.
--- End quote ---
That is fine that there are alternate stories but the basic fact of the matter is that the Talmud, which is accepted as a Holy Book by all of normative Judaism, relates the story of Rabbi Akivas students as follows:
http://www.aish.com/h/o/33o/48970241.html
--- Quote ---It was said that Rabbi Akiva had 12,000 pairs of disciples from Gabbatha to Antipatris; and all of them died at the same time because they did not treat each other with respect. The world remained desolate until Rabbi Akiva came to our Masters in the South and taught the Torah to them. These were Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehuda, Rabbi Yose, Rabbi Shimon and Rabbi Elazar ben Shammua; and it was they who revived the Torah at that time. A Tanna taught: "All of them died between Passover and Shavuot". Rabbi Hama ben Abba or, it might be said, Rabbi Hiyya ben Abin said: "All of them died a cruel death." What was it? Rabbi Nahman replied: "Croup." (Yevamot 62b)2
--- End quote ---
It takes a bit of digging to understand and rectify any apparent contradictions...
Here is the explanation you give {as related by the Aish site above}...
--- Quote ---The story of the deaths of the students of Rabbi Akiva may be part of a much larger issue. An analysis of a later parallel source may provide the clue necessary to unravel the mystery.
Rav Shrira Gaon, commenting on the original passage, uses a very telling expression to describe the death of the students: "Rabbi Akiva raised many students, [but] there was a religious persecution [shmada] on the students of Rabbi Akiva.7
The Talmud spoke of a plague striking the students, yet Rav Shrira speaks of religious persecution! The change is subtle yet the implication drastic.
The Talmudic tradition seemed quite clear: these students treated one another without respect, and therefore died of a plague. What caused Rav Shrira to introduce religious persecution as the cause of the students' demise?
A careful reading leads us to the conclusion that Rav Shrira does not disagree with the Talmud. Surely, in the tradition of thousands of commentaries before and after his time Rav Shrira saw his task as interpreting the Talmudic passage and not disagreeing with the Talmud.
Apparently Rav Shrira had a tradition that the students died during a religious conflict. The book that this information is found in is primarily a book with an historical agenda. The work "The Letter of Rav Shrira Gaon" contains singular traditions of the Talmudic period. This book – or "letter", as it is called - is the major source for information about the Talmudic age.
If we posit that Rav Shrira saw his role as the telling of history, while the role of the Talmud is to share theological perspectives, the question dissipates: Rav Shrira tells us how the students died while the Talmud tells us why they died.
TELLING WHY IT HAPPENED
The Talmud, the unparalleled work of Rabbinic Judaism, had no need to retell well-known historical episodes. Its task was to illuminate and explain G-d's hand in history – to explain why things, especially specific tragedies, befell our people. Ironically, in this instance, the Talmud became our primary source for what were well-known events. Though the Talmud was not interested in telling us what happened, rather why it happened, uninitiated readers were deluded into thinking they knew what happened as well. Rav Shrira wished to set the record straight. Therefore he tells us what happened; the students died due to religious persecution.
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Tag-MehirTzedek:
That is looking into it too much, straight up Lomdus style.
Anyway your welcome
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/304-sephirath-haomer-how-did-the-talmidhim-of-rabbi-aqiva-die
If it strikes you as unreasonable that 24,000 Tora scholars should have died in a plague because they did not treat each respectfully, then this shiur is for you. What's more, you are in good company: Rav Sharira Gaon, based on the authentic Talmudic text before him 1100 years ago, presents the matter very differently. Why some have the minhag not to do work after sunset during Sefirath HaOmer. Are the days of S'phirath Ha'Omer supposed to be a period of mourning lasting many weeks?
Sephirath HaOmer part 1
Sephirath HaOmer - Why Jews Chose to Ignore the Great Revolt
The difference in where Jews live often shapes how they think. Jews outside the Land of Israel preferred to believe that a character flaw, not Jewish nationalism, was the central event during S'phirath Ha'Omer. Should you not listen to music or make major purchases during this time?
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