Jews who believe that Reward and Punishment are only based on Torah Study

[edu]

The Following is the Soncino Translation to part of tractate Shabbat page 13b.
It is an example, of Religious Jews who do not understand why they suffer, because they view Divine reward and punishment, only as a function of how much Torah one learns.
[It is taught in the]
Tanna debe Eliyahu: It once happened that a certain scholar who had studied much Bible and Mishnah and had served scholars much, yet died in middle age. His wife took his tefillin and carried them about in the synagogues and schoolhouses and complained to them, It is written in the Torah, for that is thy life, and the length of thy days: my husband, who read [Bible], learned [Mishnah], and served scholars much, why did he die in middle age? and no man could answer her.
On one occasion I was a guest at her house, and she related the whole story to me. Said I to her, ‘My daughter! how was he to thee in thy days of menstruation?’ ‘G-d forbid!’ she rejoined; ‘he did not touch me even with his little finger.’
‘And how was he to thee in thy days of white [garments]?’
‘He ate with me, drank with me and slept with me in bodily contact, and it did not occur to him to do other.’
Said I to her, ‘Blessed be the Omnipresent for slaying him, that He did not pay careful attention to preserve the Torah {Here I slightly differed from the Soncino Translation}! For lo! the Torah hath said, And thou shalt not approach unto a woman as long as she is impure by her uncleanness.

[Lisa]

What did he mean by "thy days of white garments?"

And isn't that a harsh thing to say about a dead man that he deserved to die?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What did he mean by "thy days of white garments?"

And isn't that a harsh thing to say about a dead man that he deserved to die?

 I believe it is talking about the clean days that a women has to count (usually 7) after her period, and then immersing in the Mikwah.
 
- I think it was trying to make a point of why he died and answering her complaint.

[edu]

Quote from Lisa

And isn't that a harsh thing to say about a dead man that he deserved to die?

I am not raising this point to argue with the answer of Tag-MahirTzedek to the question, rather I wanted to see what prominent rabbis have said about Lisa's question.
So far the only answer I have found with the help of the Bar Ilan Responsa project
is from Nishmat Chaim, siman 106
In his view, the reason Eliyahu said to the woman,  ‘Blessed be the Omnipresent for slaying him', it was to praise G-d and fulfill the Biblical verse Mishlei {Proverbs}11:10 "When the wicked perish, there is rejoicement".

[Lisa]

Thanks for your response. 

But it still sounds harsh.  I mean, I associate wickedness to being either a murderer, rapist or an adulterer.  How am I wrong here?

[muman613]

Thanks for your response. 

But it still sounds harsh.  I mean, I associate wickedness to being either a murderer, rapist or an adulterer.  How am I wrong here?

I think the point is this:

We are all judged, we all err, the righteous are held to a higher level of judgment. Even a small error can count a great amount, witness the error of Moses {who struck the rock when told to speak to it} which resulted in his punishment of not being allowed to enter the Holy Land.

The bottom line is that Hashem exacts justice. Nobody dies who is not supposed to die... All is determined on the previous Days of Judgement.

[muman613]

Here this is expressed concerning Rabbi Akivas students, 24,000 of which died for the sin of 'not respecting' the other...

http://www.beyondbt.com/2011/05/19/lag-ba%E2%80%99omer-rebbe-akivah-and-kabbalah/

But putting the legalities of this time period aside there is a very difficult problem in this historical accounting. How is it possible that the 24,000 students of Rebbe Akivah were guilty of not conducting themselves with the proper respect for one another? Rebbe Akivah was the one who lived and taught to the greatest degree the foundation of “V’ahavtah L’reachah Kamochah”. How is it possible that his message wasn’t clearly established and practiced amongst his students? We can find the answer to this dilemma from our tradition. We know that there is a general rule in how Hashem deals with people in this world called “Hakadosh Baruchu Medakdek al Hatzadikim K’chut Hasa’arah” which means that G-d is actually more exacting in judgment (even to a hairsbreadth) with the righteous than he is with normal people. We know the famous Gemara in Bava Kamma 50a

,.
.
.

The answer is of course – NO! This is a warped view of the ways of the Almighty. He doesn’t offer diplomatic immunity to his righteous ones. On the other hand, if this is true then why would anyone want to make this sacrifice and try to be so great when all that is waiting for him on the other side is being treated with such exacting judgment? The answer is that the advantage and the benefit of living life on a higher plane of completion and to such a degree of sacrifice far outweighs the comfort of being treated with greater mercy but remaining less connected to Hashem. You can’t have it both ways. The tzaddik realizes that even though he will be judged more strictly as he reaches greater levels in the service of Hashem, it is worth it because in return a deeper level of closeness and a stronger bond with the Almighty becomes available. The normal person who doesn’t make that push may be treated with more mercy and allowed a more lenient form of judgment. However, in return for that he looses out on a greater level of closeness that can only be gained by the path of the tzadik. This is the insight of this teaching about Hashem’s way with the tzadikim.

Therefore, not only is the righteous person treated with greater exactingness in judgment, but he is judged more strictly specifically in the areas where he is great. It is no coincidence at all that Rebbe Nechunia’s daughter fell into one of his wells, nor is it a coincidence that Rebbe Akivah’s students passed away specifically because they weren’t complete in the area of “Been Adam Lachaveiro” – interpersonal relationships. Specifically because Rebbe Akivah was so great in this area, he was tested and judged so strictly with regards to it. Perhaps more than anything else we focus our attention on the centrality of “Bein Adam Lachaveiro” during the Omer. This is the time that the Torah wants us to make the transition between the barley offering on the second day of Pesach to the two wheat breads of Shavuos. We discussed in another article about the significance of the counting of the Omer that the whole point that the Torah wants is for us to realize that our productivity both physically and spiritually needs to be refined from more selfish to more selfless. The more selfless a person becomes the easier it is to fulfill the precepts of “Bein Adam Lachaveiro”.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Here this is expressed concerning Rabbi Akivas students, 24,000 of which died for the sin of 'not respecting' the other...

 Not everyone agrees with that and that being how they died. In fact more ancient sources tell otherwise (R' Shrira Gaon) and the Meiri for example. They died in the war against rome al pi kiddush Hasem.
 
 Also to Lisa- the sin of sleeping with a Nidda is a grave sin indeed. It is also mentioned as part of the 36 sins of getting Karet (to see the list you can open the first page of Talmud Kritot) if you request I can post a link to it.

[muman613]

Not everyone agrees with that and that being how they died. In fact more ancient sources tell otherwise (R' Shrira Gaon) and the Meiri for example. They died in the war against rome al pi kiddush Hasem.
 
 Also to Lisa- the sin of sleeping with a Nidda is a grave sin indeed. It is also mentioned as part of the 36 sins of getting Karet (to see the list you can open the first page of Talmud Kritot) if you request I can post a link to it.

That is fine that there are alternate stories but the basic fact of the matter is that the Talmud, which is accepted as a Holy Book by all of normative Judaism, relates the story of Rabbi Akivas students as follows:

http://www.aish.com/h/o/33o/48970241.html

It was said that Rabbi Akiva had 12,000 pairs of disciples from Gabbatha to Antipatris; and all of them died at the same time because they did not treat each other with respect. The world remained desolate until Rabbi Akiva came to our Masters in the South and taught the Torah to them. These were Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehuda, Rabbi Yose, Rabbi Shimon and Rabbi Elazar ben Shammua; and it was they who revived the Torah at that time. A Tanna taught: "All of them died between Passover and Shavuot". Rabbi Hama ben Abba or, it might be said, Rabbi Hiyya ben Abin said: "All of them died a cruel death." What was it? Rabbi Nahman replied: "Croup." (Yevamot 62b)2

It takes a bit of digging to understand and rectify any apparent contradictions...

Here is the explanation you give {as related by the Aish site above}...

The story of the deaths of the students of Rabbi Akiva may be part of a much larger issue. An analysis of a later parallel source may provide the clue necessary to unravel the mystery.

Rav Shrira Gaon, commenting on the original passage, uses a very telling expression to describe the death of the students: "Rabbi Akiva raised many students, [but] there was a religious persecution [shmada] on the students of Rabbi Akiva.7

The Talmud spoke of a plague striking the students, yet Rav Shrira speaks of religious persecution! The change is subtle yet the implication drastic.

The Talmudic tradition seemed quite clear: these students treated one another without respect, and therefore died of a plague. What caused Rav Shrira to introduce religious persecution as the cause of the students' demise?

A careful reading leads us to the conclusion that Rav Shrira does not disagree with the Talmud. Surely, in the tradition of thousands of commentaries before and after his time Rav Shrira saw his task as interpreting the Talmudic passage and not disagreeing with the Talmud.

Apparently Rav Shrira had a tradition that the students died during a religious conflict. The book that this information is found in is primarily a book with an historical agenda. The work "The Letter of Rav Shrira Gaon" contains singular traditions of the Talmudic period. This book – or "letter", as it is called - is the major source for information about the Talmudic age.

If we posit that Rav Shrira saw his role as the telling of history, while the role of the Talmud is to share theological perspectives, the question dissipates: Rav Shrira tells us how the students died while the Talmud tells us why they died.

TELLING WHY IT HAPPENED

The Talmud, the unparalleled work of Rabbinic Judaism, had no need to retell well-known historical episodes. Its task was to illuminate and explain G-d's hand in history – to explain why things, especially specific tragedies, befell our people. Ironically, in this instance, the Talmud became our primary source for what were well-known events. Though the Talmud was not interested in telling us what happened, rather why it happened, uninitiated readers were deluded into thinking they knew what happened as well. Rav Shrira wished to set the record straight. Therefore he tells us what happened; the students died due to religious persecution.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

That is looking into it too much, straight up Lomdus style.
 Anyway your welcome
 http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/304-sephirath-haomer-how-did-the-talmidhim-of-rabbi-aqiva-die
If it strikes you as unreasonable that 24,000 Tora scholars should have died in a plague because they did not treat each respectfully, then this shiur is for you. What's more, you are in good company: Rav Sharira Gaon, based on the authentic Talmudic text before him 1100 years ago, presents the matter very differently. Why some have the minhag not to do work after sunset during Sefirath HaOmer. Are the days of S'phirath Ha'Omer supposed to be a period of mourning lasting many weeks?

Sephirath HaOmer part 1

Sephirath HaOmer - Why Jews Chose to Ignore the Great Revolt
 The difference in where Jews live often shapes how they think. Jews outside the Land of Israel preferred to believe that a character flaw, not Jewish nationalism, was the central event during S'phirath Ha'Omer. Should you not listen to music or make major purchases during this time?

[muman613]

That is looking into it too much, straight up Lomdus style.
 Anyway your welcome
 http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/35-hagim/304-sephirath-haomer-how-did-the-talmidhim-of-rabbi-aqiva-die
If it strikes you as unreasonable that 24,000 Tora scholars should have died in a plague because they did not treat each respectfully, then this shiur is for you. What's more, you are in good company: Rav Sharira Gaon, based on the authentic Talmudic text before him 1100 years ago, presents the matter very differently. Why some have the minhag not to do work after sunset during Sefirath HaOmer. Are the days of S'phirath Ha'Omer supposed to be a period of mourning lasting many weeks?

Sephirath HaOmer part 1

Sephirath HaOmer - Why Jews Chose to Ignore the Great Revolt
 The difference in where Jews live often shapes how they think. Jews outside the Land of Israel preferred to believe that a character flaw, not Jewish nationalism, was the central event during S'phirath Ha'Omer. Should you not listen to music or make major purchases during this time?

I have not listened to this but could you explain what they died for? Saying that they died in a war doesn't exactly say why... If they were so righteous and deserving then they should have defeated the enemy. As the Aish piece explains the combination of the two narratives is the way we can discover the most truth.

The Aish piece explains that the plague may have been the decree that they would die in the war. And I have seen others dispel this story with the fact that the Bar Kochba revolution was much earlier than when the students died {apparently towards the end of Rabbi Akivas life}.

The lesson is that our own interpersonal relations have an influence on our divine providence.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"that the plague may have been the decree that they would die in the war. "

 Plague and war- or Shmada are totally different things.

"what they died for? Saying that they died in a war doesn't exactly say why..."

 For the liberation of Israel, for the honor of G-D. They died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m which is the highest level to die. What makes more sense that these greats died because they didn't respect each other or that they died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m?

[muman613]

"that the plague may have been the decree that they would die in the war. "

 Plague and war- or Shmada are totally different things.

"what they died for? Saying that they died in a war doesn't exactly say why..."

 For the liberation of Israel, for the honor of G-D. They died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m which is the highest level to die. What makes more sense that these greats died because they didn't respect each other or that they died Al Pi Kiddush Hash-m?

I have not heard this. Why would Hashem want them to die? Does he want people to sacrifice themselves? If Hashem is with them they should have been victorious. What is the reason for their death?

Your explanation sounds more like Islam than Judaism. Islam teaches that it is glorious to DIE for Hashem while Judaism stresses it is more important to LIVE for Hashem...

Did you learn anything from last weeks Parasha concerning the greats Nadav and Avihu? They too died trying to sanctify Hashems name, but they were consumed with fire, because what they did was not commanded.

[muman613]

Maybe you should explain your opinion regarding the Talmud before we continue. It seems many times you are arguing that the Talmud is wrong and that so-and-so Rabbi is right. I am of the belief that the Talmud is a more reliable source for Jewish wisdom than any later sage. Most of Orthodox and Rabbinic Judaism hold the Talmud in very high esteem at the same level as Tanach.

Your understanding, in my opinion, does not give the Talmud the respect that it should be given. It is not just a bunch of fairy tales or things that the Rabbis just wanted to write down for the fun of it. Each and every tractate contains volumes and volumes of lessons for us and our future generations.

[muman613]

All sources I have references say that the majority opinion is that they died by a plague. There are, as you point out, those who support Rav Shira Gaons point that they may have died in a war. I will continue to teach that the primary lesson is that the students died due to a plague but there are opinions that they died in the war...

Nobody is trying to cover up what Rav Shira Gaon says. His opinion is almost always mentioned.

http://www.steinsaltz.org/learning.php?pg=Daf_Yomi&articleId=682

Traditionally, the weeks between Pesach and Shavu'ot ? the days of Sefirat ha-Omer ? are kept as days of mourning. The likely source for this tradition appears on our daf (=page), where the Gemara quotes Rabbi Akiva as teaching that even a person who studied Torah in his youth should continue to study Torah into his old age. Similarly, someone who teaches students as a young man should continue to do so even when he gets old.

To illustrate the importance of this teaching, the Gemara relates that this concept was crucial for Rabbi Akiva personally. Rabbi Akiva is said to have had 12,000 pairs of students across the land of Israel, and all of them died during the period between Pesach and Shavuot. The land was left desolate until Rabbi Akiva taught a new group of students ? Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehudah, Rabbi Yossi, Rabbi Shimon and Rabbi Elazar ben Shamu'a - who succeeded in reestablishing Torah study in Israel.

The simple reading of the Gemara makes it appear that Rabbi Akiva's students died of a plague, and most of the rishonim accept that approach. In his historical letter, Rav Sherira Ga'on offers a different explanation. He says that they died of shamda, which means a war or governmental decree. This is an apparent reference to the Bar Kokhba revolt, of which Rabbi Akiva was an enthusiastic supporter. It appears that Rabbi Akiva's students volunteered for military service under Bar Kokhba's leadership, and when the revolt was put down by the Romans with great severity, they were among the many who were killed. The Me'iri suggests that the source for the tradition of mourning during this period stems from this story. According to the ge'onim the students did not die on the 33rd day of Sefirat ha-Omer, which is why there is no mourning on that day.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Maybe you should explain your opinion regarding the Talmud before we continue. It seems many times you are arguing that the Talmud is wrong and that so-and-so Rabbi is right. I am of the belief that the Talmud is a more reliable source for Jewish wisdom than any later sage. Most of Orthodox and Rabbinic Judaism hold the Talmud in very high esteem at the same level as Tanach.

Your understanding, in my opinion, does not give the Talmud the respect that it should be given. It is not just a bunch of fairy tales or things that the Rabbis just wanted to write down for the fun of it. Each and every tractate contains volumes and volumes of lessons for us and our future generations.

 R' Shrira Gaon brought down what he did from his version of the Talmud. R' Shrira Gaon is well known to be highly reliable. It is said about him- if we cant rely on R 'Shrira Gaon then on who'm can we rely on?
   The Talmud as well has and had a number of censors, both internal and external who discouraged furthur things like rebellion against other nations. It just wasn't what needed to be done right after the destruction.
 What you said about the students (and its 12,000 according to R' Shrira Gaon and the Meiri as well by the way) can as well be applied to R' Akiva and the other martyrs as well. The Rambam says that R' Akiva was the arms bearer of Bar Kochba, meaning he fully supported the great revolt. Don't you think he would put his money where his mouth is and send his students to fight as well? Also the great city of Beter (or Beitar) had all completly religious warriors.
 And about them dying which makes more sense, them dying just for disrespecting eachother (which by the way is disrespectful for us to say about them) and goes against G-D's justice OR them dying gloriously and getting the respect they deserve- them dying as warriors fighting Roman oppression. Their is no higher way to die then for al pi kiddush Hashem.

[muman613]

R' Shrira Gaon brought down what he did from his version of the Talmud. R' Shrira Gaon is well known to be highly reliable. It is said about him- if we cant rely on R 'Shrira Gaon then on who'm can we rely on?
   The Talmud as well has and had a number of censors, both internal and external who discouraged furthur things like rebellion against other nations. It just wasn't what needed to be done right after the destruction.
 What you said about the students (and its 12,000 according to R' Shrira Gaon and the Meiri as well by the way) can as well be applied to R' Akiva and the other martyrs as well. The Rambam says that R' Akiva was the arms bearer of Bar Kochba, meaning he fully supported the great revolt. Don't you think he would put his money where his mouth is and send his students to fight as well? Also the great city of Beter (or Beitar) had all completly religious warriors.
 And about them dying which makes more sense, them dying just for disrespecting eachother (which by the way is disrespectful for us to say about them) and goes against G-D's justice OR them dying gloriously and getting the respect they deserve- them dying as warriors fighting Roman oppression. Their is no higher way to die then for al pi kiddush Hashem.

We don't need Rambam to know that R. Akiva was a prime supporter of Bar Kochba... This comes straight from the Talmud...

Also I don't necessarily agree that the students of Rabbi Akiva were trained as warriors as Bar Kochbahs men were trained. There are legends about how mighty Bar Kochba was and his army was able to fend off the massive Roman army..

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48944706.html

From the letters and other historical data, we learn that in 132 CE, Bar Kosiba organized a large guerilla army and succeeded in actually throwing the Romans out of Jerusalem and Israel and establishing, albeit for a very brief period, an independent Jewish state. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 97b) states that he established an independent kingdom that lasted for two and half years.

Bar Kosiba's success caused many to believe ― among them Rabbi Akiva, one of the wisest and holiest of Israel's rabbis ― that he could be the Messiah. He was nicknamed "Bar Kochba" or "Son of Star," an allusion to a verse in the Book of Numbers (24:17): "there shall come a star out of Jacob." This star is understood to refer to the Messiah.
Bar Kochba did not turn out to be the Messiah, and later the rabbis wrote that his real name was Bar Kosiva meaning "Son of a Lie" ― highlighting the fact that he was a false Messiah.

At the time, however, Bar Kochba ― who was a man of tremendous leadership abilities ― managed to unite the entire Jewish people around him. Jewish accounts describe him as a man of tremendous physical strength, who could uproot a tree while riding on a horse. This is probably an exaggeration, but he was a very special leader and undoubtedly had messianic potential, which is what Rabbi Akiva recognized in him.

Jewish sources list Bar Kochba's army at 100,000 men, but even if that is an overestimate and he had half that number, it was still a huge force.

United, the Jews were a force to be reckoned with. They overran the Romans, threw them out of the land of Israel, declared independence and even minted coins. That is a pretty unique event in the history of the Roman Empire.

And again I assert that Hashem doesn't want us to die for him. That is not a message which is taught by Judaism {although it is a muslim tenet}. Everyone dies for a reason and there must be a reason that these students died. I personally don't accept your idea that they accomplished anything by dying for 'kiddush Hashem'. Hashem must have been disappointed about something concerning their service.

You know that the Talmud also explains why both the first and second Temples were destroyed. I will assume that you don't agree with the Talmudic explanation that the second Temple was destroyed because of 'Baseless Hatred' or Sinat Chinam. I do accept that explanation.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also I don't necessarily agree that the students of Rabbi Akiva were trained as warriors as Bar Kochbahs men were trained.

 It was a Milhemit Mitzva, soo I assume (as Halacha dictates) that everyone was involved. And since R' Akiva supported him even getting the title of "arms bearer" I would assume he put his money where his mouth is and sent his men to fight as well.

 - their is also a problem today, especially after this long galut that people cannot relate to Jews much the less scholars fighting in wars. The situation and mentality was different back then.

[muman613]

 It was a Milhemit Mitzva, soo I assume (as Halacha dictates) that everyone was involved. And since R' Akiva supported him even getting the title of "arms bearer" I would assume he put his money where his mouth is and sent his men to fight as well.

Would he send ALL OF THE STUDENTS without making sure that some would survive in case there was a defeat? You realize after these students died there were NO Rabbis left and Akiva had to start over with only five students...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Would he send ALL OF THE STUDENTS without making sure that some would survive in case there was a defeat? You realize after these students died there were NO Rabbis left and Akiva had to start over with only five students...

 Apparently YES. Just as Avraham sent his students to save Lot, knowing or even thinking that they would all die (together with him). Besides it didn't even have to be him sending them. The Romans could have gone after them knowing full well who they were and that the Torah and motivation for the nation to continue was through them. It was a Shmada. It wasn't Jews sending people to fight in foreign lands. It was in their backyards soo to speak.

[edu]

A member of my family, brought to my attention that Rabbi Filber {in Hebrew פילבר} wrote about the story I cited at the beginning of this thread.
He claimed that also Rabbi Kook took his approach.
Rabbi Filber claims that one's involvement in Torah can be broken down into 2 periods. In the first period one fills himself with knowledge in all the different branches of Torah and in the later period he teaches and spreads his knowledge to others. To sum up a whole chapter in a few words, he contends that it was not apparent from the outside that this "Rabbi" suffered from a serious failure from his outlook on Torah. So to prevent him from improper influence on future generations, who are honestly looking for the word of G-d, this "Rabbi" who took unjustified lenient approach to the laws of Nida was taken away in half of his years. Half representing the period in which one fills himself with Torah knowledge before spreading it to the generation.
It's true there are some heretical rabbis that teach things that overtly against Judaism, but Rabbi Filber contends those type of people, one is more capable of being able to avoid their damage from their influence. The true threat is the "Rabbis" who are not ideologically or morally fitting, but appear to be, to the masses.