The Hefner Question - What is really obscene?

[MurderReligiousJews]

I'm curious about this based on what religious people believe. What is really obscene? When Hugh Hefner was battled by bank crooks who stood against his very soft core magazine, he asked, "Are breasts really obscene more than war, death, and destruction?" Europe bans violence form television but not nudity. The US bans nudity fro television but not violence. What's viewed as obscene is different. What do you guys think?

[muman613]

I'm curious about this based on what religious people believe. What is really obscene? When Hugh Hefner was battled by bank crooks who stood against his very soft core magazine, he asked, "Are breasts really obscene more than war, death, and destruction?" Europe bans violence form television but not nudity. The US bans nudity fro television but not violence. What's viewed as obscene is different. What do you guys think?

Obscene is not something Jews discuss...

What you are asking about is what Jewish law says concerning Modesty. Tzniut, which is modesty, means covering the body so that men will not have the urge to sin with their eyes. When a woman does not dress modestly she is 'placing a stumbling block' before the man, causing him to sin or avert his eyes.

All men and women should dress modestly. As a result, when they do not, it may be considered obscene.

http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class14.html

TSNIUT: THE PRINCIPLE OF INTERNALITY

The Judaic response to human nature's tendency toward superficiality is a set of laws that are categorized under the heading of "tzniut." The actual definition of tzniut is the practical commitment not to allow oneself to be moved into superficial or external definitions of self or others. The result of tzniut is to make room for an inner, and therefore more total, vision to emerge. (Since the closest, though inaccurate, English definition of tzniut is "modesty," a word with negative vibes in much of today's society, we will continue to use the Hebrew term with its positive connotations.)

Tzniut is a consciousness that the Torah demands both men and women to develop, because it is a prerequisite to possessing a spiritual worldview. Men in Jewish religious society have generally taken it upon themselves to uphold a standard of dress that rivals and sometimes even surpasses that of traditional women. Many men avoid wearing short sleeves and wear shorts, if they do at all, only for sports...

So why is tzniut emphasized more for women than for men? The answer is twofold. Primarily, women are acknowledged to be more inherently gifted in tzniut and are therefore more strongly encouraged to achieve in this area of spiritual endeavor. There is also the recognition that men's greater propensity to objectify the opposite sex tends to lead to women's suffering from self-definition based on externalities. For both of these reasons, Judaism directs more specific tzniut legislation at women.

Knowing that what we wear says something about who we are, we usually choose to project ourselves by wearing clothes and makeup that make a statement we want others to hear. When you walk down the street, you see people wearing all sorts of statements...

Women generally seek to dress and behave in ways that they know men will appreciate, which all too often means focusing on externality. When a woman then incorporates this view into her own self image, completing the vicious circle, the results can be pathetic. At the least, she may not be able to envision herself wearing shoes whose heels are low enough that she can actually walk comfortably. At the extreme, this exaggerated emphasis on appearance can translate itself into the eating disorders that have become so prevalent in this "thin is everything" society.

We often fail to realize that how we dress influences not only how others view us, but how we view ourselves. People project back to us the image we intentionally or even unintentionally give forth, and we further internalize it. Even without social feedback, our mere consciousness of the uniform we are wearing impacts directly on our self-image.

The uniform that the Torah requires of women is dignity. That is nonnegotiable. While all other aspects of self-statement can be determined by individual taste, human dignity remains the focus of the dress code in Judaism.

By observing the laws of modesty, a woman is making the most important statement an individual can make: that she is a total person, not just a body. Secular society too often seeks to express only physicality and diminishes the person in the process. Certain non-Jewish religions, on the other hand, advocate spiritual expression through denying the physical altogether.

Judaism strikes a balance by acknowledging the need for both physical and nonphysical self-expression. Sensuality is channeled into the intimate aspects of one's married life, where it is affirmed and encouraged as a means of expressing one's deepest self to the other. It is simultaneously held back from the public eye, where it will inevitably create distortion and superficiality in how one is perceived. Dress such as spaghetti strap tank tops, short skirts and low necklines encourage the casual observer to focus on the body and not on the mind or the soul of the woman so attired. Publicly projecting oneself in such a way has the severe spiritual consequence of banishing G-d's Presence. Modest dress, on the other hand, not only prevents men from viewing women as objects, but, more importantly, allows women themselves to internalize a spiritual self-image.

See also concerning Jewish view of sex @ http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/sex.htm

In Jewish law, sex is not considered inherently shameful, sinful, or obscene.  Sex is not seen as a necessary evil for the sole purpose of procreation.  Although sexual desire comes from the yetzer hara (the so-called "evil impulse"), it is no more evil than hunger or thirst, which also come from the yetzer hara.  Like hunger, thirst, or other basic needs, sexual desire must be controlled, channeled, and satisfied in the proper time, place, and manner.  But when sexual desire is satisfied between a husband and wife at the proper time and out of mutual love and desire, sexual relations are actually a mitzvah (a Biblical commandment, see Exodus 21,10 referring to "conjugal rights" and the commentary on it).

[muman613]

Regarding whether violence is obscene... I believe Judaism does not seek violence, and we should not be instilling our children to be violent. I do think our society does portray too much violence on TV, but I have not watched TV in about 10 years now and this is my advice, avoid what they are showing on the cable channels. It will affect your soul...

[MurderReligiousJews]

^ So if both are obscene, I will only give one more question, which is how can we train a generation of soldiers to fight for Israel/America/Europe/Serbia/etc. if they are very sensitive? There have been some tough people I know that got broken by the Marines during boot camp. I shudder when I think of young kids who have never seen a violent or immoral act being sent off to kill for a state. IT would terribly shock them.

[briann]

^ So if both are obscene, I will only give one more question, which is how can we train a generation of soldiers to fight for Israel/America/Europe/Serbia/etc. if they are very sensitive? There have been some tough people I know that got broken by the Marines during boot camp. I shudder when I think of young kids who have never seen a violent or immoral act being sent off to kill for a state. IT would terribly shock them.

I actually agree with you in part.  We have a society in which our institutions all preach leftist pacifism.  In Los Angeles Unified School district, if a boy even draws a gun, his parents can be prosecuted for child abuse.  We are taught that we all need to be more understanding and 'tolerant' to ideologies such as Islam, that seek to destroy this.

This makes it much tougher to recruit for the millitary.

However... thankfully, there are groups like us that try to unbrainwash our youth.

This has no connection to pornagraphy, I am not sure of the connection here.   Many of the most pornographically obsessed people I know are huge pacifists who think all guns are evil.

[muman613]

^ So if both are obscene, I will only give one more question, which is how can we train a generation of soldiers to fight for Israel/America/Europe/Serbia/etc. if they are very sensitive? There have been some tough people I know that got broken by the Marines during boot camp. I shudder when I think of young kids who have never seen a violent or immoral act being sent off to kill for a state. IT would terribly shock them.

The children must be taught that there are things worth fighting for. Especially morals, the betterment of society, and ensuring the continuity of the Jewish nation. Violence has a place in society and I am surely not a pacifist. The Torah is full of instances where violence and war are required. There are obligatory wars in the Torah which require the entire people to fight against the enemy.

What I was trying to say is that we should not be violent people by nature. We should be able to see that everything has a time and a purpose under heaven {as it says in Ecclesiastes}. Judaism, for the most part, says to walk the middle line on most things. We should not be pacifist and we should not be 'war lovers'. We should view war as a necessary evil.