Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
To Whom Qabala May Concern — The Authenticity of the Zohar –Update 02
muman613:
Kabbalah is a part of Jewish belief. I find all these attempts to make people believe it is satanic or idolatry, or other such things to be counterproductive.
I find all those Chassidic Jews which many here are trying to imply are following false beliefs often happen to be zionistic. I have heard three shuirs which explain why it is so important for Jews to live in Eretz Yisrael. Most of the great Kabbalists lived or visited the land, and are buried there.
This kind of stuff gives more ammunition to the non-Jews who persecuted the Jews of Ukraine who accused us of believing in Satan, or other slanders.
Only a small minority of Rabbis teach this kind of stuff and I don't listen to them, because I believe this Rabbi Bar Chayim is increasing slander and does not understand the damage he creates by dividing the people like this. It is fine if people don't believe or learn Kabbalah, it is not essential to believe... But what is the purpose of regularly bashing it? Does a Rabbi make it his 'shtick' to regularly bash other beliefs.
Zelhar:
There is no slander in what Rabi Bar Hayim wrote here:
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/593-response-to-a-reader-regarding-qabala-and-the-zohar
He doesn't bash anyone but he sticks to the truth as he understands it. Unlike people who insist the Zohar was written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai when it is patently false.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on May 20, 2012, 02:20:51 PM ---There is no slander in what Rabi Bar Hayim wrote here:
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/593-response-to-a-reader-regarding-qabala-and-the-zohar
He doesn't bash anyone but he sticks to the truth as he understands it. Unlike people who insist the Zohar was written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai when it is patently false.
--- End quote ---
I understand all the questions about the source of the Zohar. And still I understand that the stories of the Zohar were known before they were published. I do not insist that everything in the Zohar was written by Rabbi Simon Bar Yochi.
But I do believe that there is a legitimate knowledge of Torah called Kabbalah, and it exists and is alluded to in the Talmud.
Regarding the slander which you do not recognize, read this excerpt from the article you linked:
--- Quote ---My point is that extreme and unhinged behaviour is intrinsic to the Qabalistic perspective on life, and its real world impact is generally negative. Time and again we see that so-called mysticism conduces to irrational and unhealthy behaviours. For example: Would people who cannot properly provide for their children somehow find the money to fly to Uman one, two and three times a year were it not for the Qabalistic significance that they attach to such a trip? Another example: Inserts included in newspapers for the last two weeks have been encouraging people to phone up and order their very own, personal Holy Qabala Candle. "Just send us a donation, and light this candle on Lagh Ba'Omer and pray to Rashbi for whatever you like….the mystical powers are incredible. Your life will change." Avodha Zara, pure and simple. I have the inserts on my desk, and I'm keeping them in case someone doesn't believe me. In the name of Qabala, Judaism has, for many, been turned into a circus, an orgy of primitive superstitions. And did I mention Shabtai Ssvi? The followers of Shabtai Ssvi were known as "Zoharisten" because they claimed their heresies and abominations were based on the Zohar. Anyone wishing to discuss Qabala must first be able and willing to look the reality of Qabala in the eye. It's not pretty.
--- End quote ---
And how about this:
--- Quote ---11. For a very select few, capable of conceiving of sophisticated constructs and analogies, Qabala can engender enlightenment. For most Jews, however, and for the historical collective of K'lal Yisrael, it has led to much that is pernicious. The most glaring example is the criminal passivity and delusional attitude towards Redemption that is evident wherever Qabala thrives. In this sense, Qabala and Zionism are diametrically opposed, and to the extent that Judaism in general was influenced by such thinking, particularly over the last 5 centuries, Zionism justifiably viewed itself as the antithesis of Judaism. And this is an immense tragedy, because the healthy aspects of Zionism – namely, that we are required to create G'ula by our own real-world actions as prescribed by the Tora – have always been part and parcel of authentic Tora Judaism.
--- End quote ---
I know many Chassidic Rabbis and listened to many, and none of these Rabbis believe that we don't have a part in the redemption process. All those I know are very Zionistic, and teach that Israel is the place all Jews should be, as the Zohar and Kabbalah also clearly teaches.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on May 20, 2012, 02:29:09 PM --- I do not insist that everything in the Zohar was written by Rabbi Simon Bar Yochi.
But I do believe that there is a legitimate knowledge of Torah called Kabbalah, and it exists and is alluded to in the Talmud.
Regarding the slander which you do not recognize, read this excerpt from the article you linked:
--- End quote ---
Fine, soo? That's what we are saying.
Also I agree, it is said that Rav Saadia Gaon knew Kabbalah, yett he wrote strongly against things like reincarnation and some other things mentioned in books like the Zohar.
Their is no slander. He is a Torah scholar speaking the truth (objectivly- what he believes to be the truth), this was done always by great Torah scholars. If you disagree with his points, bring the proof. Otherwise don't accuse of slander and other such things trying to quiten the points made.
muman613:
Even the Chabad site clearly explains that what we have today published as the Zohar is a compilation of stories passed down through the Mesorah of Kabbalistic Rabbis of the ages.
http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380596/jewish/Rashbi-Works.htm
The Zohar is known as the primary text of the Kabbala. Its pre-eminent place in Jewish mysticism does not derive solely from its antiquity or its authorship. Other basic works of the Kabbala, like Sefer Yetzira and Sefer Habahir, are of earlier origin. The Zohar's importance must rather be attributed to its comprehensiveness, becoming the source for practically all the later authoritative Kabbalistic teachings of the school of R. Yitzchak Luria and others. Shalshelet HaKabbala (pg. 31b)holds that the Zohar currently in our possession is a mere fraction of the original work and maintains that entire work of the Zohar was so large that it would constitute an entire camel-load.
The Zohar itself attributes its disclosure of the Torah's mysteries to R. Shimon bar Yochai (known by the acronym "Rashbi"), the second-century Tanna who is the central master in the Zohar, and his disciples ("Chevraya" in Hebrew), including his son R. Elazar, his scribe R. Abba, R. Yehuda, R. Yossi ben Yaakov, R. Yitzchak, R. Chizkiyah, R. Chiya, R. Yossi, and R. Yaakov bar Idi. (Tikunei Zohar 1a; Zohar Chadash, Tikunim, 93d) Rabbi Shimon himself apparently wrote some of the Zohar, described as "the First Mishna," (Chabura Kadmaa mentioned in Zohar III, p. 219a ) while hiding in a cave from the Roman authorities who wanted to execute him. The Zohar affirms that one of Rashbi's foremost disciples, Rabbi Abba, recorded the bulk of his teachings (Zohar II, 123b. See also ibid. III, 287b and 296b ). In addition, early sources state that the composition of the Zohar extended over the period of Rashbi, his disciples and their disciples, who recorded many of the teachings passed on orally from Rabbi Shimon to his close associates and disciples.1
Thus its authorship spanned several generations.
The present form of the Zohar, in order of the parshiyot of the Torah, is of a much later date, most likely from the period of the Geonim, and there are some interpolations from these late editors.2
The Zohar was concealed for many centuries, as the study of the Kabbala was restricted to a select few qualified individuals. It became revealed only in the thirteenth century and was published by one of the leading kabbalists living in Spain, Rabbi Moshe de Leon. Some believed that the Ramban (Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman c. 1194-1270 CE), himself a renowned Kabbalist, had sent the Zohar from Israel by ship to his son in Catalonia, but the ship had been diverted and the texts ended up in the hands of Rabbi Moshe de Leon (Shem HaGedolim, Chida Sefarim, Zayin, 8). Others explained that these manuscripts had been hidden in a vault for a thousand years and had been discovered by an Arabian king who sent them to Toledo to be deciphered. Some maintained that Spanish conquistadors had discovered the manuscripts of the Zohar among many others in an academy in Heidelberg (Shem HaGedolim, ibid.). Other explanations have also been offered. The mystics ascribe special potency to the study of the Zohar: it effects a nullification of evil decrees, eases the travails of exile, hastens the redemption, and draws forth divine effluence and blessings (See R. Abraham Azulai, Foreword to Or Hachamah, p. 2d). There is great merit even in the mere recitation of the sacred texts of the Zohar, even though one does not understand them (R. Chaim David Azulai, Moreh Be'etzba II:43).
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