Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
To Whom Qabala May Concern — The Authenticity of the Zohar –Update 02
Zelhar:
--- Quote from: muman613 on May 20, 2012, 02:29:09 PM ---I understand all the questions about the source of the Zohar. And still I understand that the stories of the Zohar were known before they were published. I do not insist that everything in the Zohar was written by Rabbi Simon Bar Yochi.
But I do believe that there is a legitimate knowledge of Torah called Kabbalah, and it exists and is alluded to in the Talmud.
Regarding the slander which you do not recognize, read this excerpt from the article you linked:
--- End quote ---
Some kabbalists give think the Zohar trumps Shulchan Aruch and Yad HaChazaka. Clearly that is a serious problem. I think that most rabbis even if they believe Kabbalah has legitimacy don't give it such a high rank in terms of halacha ruling.
What rabbi Bar Hayim wrote is unfortunately very true. This is really what's going on in Israel in some circles. And there are lots of charlatans who claim to be mekubalim and really they are after money like the worst snake oil peddler.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on May 20, 2012, 02:36:32 PM --- Fine, soo? That's what we are saying.
Also I agree, it is said that Rav Saadia Gaon knew Kabbalah, yett he wrote strongly against things like reincarnation and some other things mentioned in books like the Zohar.
Their is no slander. He is a Torah scholar speaking the truth (objectivly- what he believes to be the truth), this was done always by great Torah scholars. If you disagree with his points, bring the proof. Otherwise don't accuse of slander and other such things trying to quiten the points made.
--- End quote ---
Tag,
When he makes sweeping claims about various beliefs of Judaism, such as a hypothetical family which doesn't support his kids yet goes to Uman as a way to slander the entire group... And saying that those who have faith that includes Kabbalistic ideas are not Zionists, when my eyes and ears see otherwise... That, in my opinion, is slander.
When I watch a good Rabbi like Rabbi Richman or Rabbi Lazer Brody, who do not attempt to divide or degrade the beliefs of other Jews, who attempt to see the good in each Jew instead of feeling his belief is superior than the other, then I see a true Jewish leader.
If you feel a need to eliminate Kabbalah from Jewish belief, then so be it... But you yourself have posted many things here by Rabbis who do quote from the Zohar, and use Kabbalistic ideas to convey their ideas.
I also ask if you think that those Religious Zionists in Judea and Samaria believe in the Zohar and Kabbalah.... I would believe that they do... One my my Chabad friend has a daughter who lives in a Settlement there and her husband is a Rabbi there.. I don't think belief in Kabbalah causes one to be anti zionist...
muman613:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on May 20, 2012, 02:40:42 PM ---Some kabbalists give think the Zohar trumps Shulchan Aruch and Yad HaChazaka. Clearly that is a serious problem. I think that most rabbis even if they believe Kabbalah has legitimacy don't give it such a high rank in terms of halacha ruling.
What rabbi Bar Hayim wrote is unfortunately very true. This is really what's going on in Israel in some circles. And there are lots of charlatans who claim to be mekubalim and really they are after money like the worst snake oil peddler.
--- End quote ---
If this is the case then I apologize, because all I have learned is that the Shulchan Aruch is the 'Code of Law' for all Jews. Even Breslov claims it keeps the Shulchan Aruch...
Here from a Breslev site:
http://www.breslovtorah.com/breslov/
--- Quote ---Breslov Chassiduth is an application of the hidden light of the Torah to serving Hashem through sincerity, joy, and simplicity. Rebbe Nachman emphasized tefilah (prayer) and daily Torah study – especially shulchan aruch and halacha. Breslov teachings explain how emunah (faith) serves as a means to do teshuvah (repentance) and that every Jew can return to Hashem at any moment, no matter where he or she is situated on a geographical, educational, or spiritual level.
In addition to the regular daily services in the synagogue, Rebbe Nachman advised his Chassidim to speak to Hashem in their own words as well. This is done in complete privacy during hitbodeduth (seclusion) every day. The reestablishment of this ancient form of Jewish tefilah helps one develop better concentration during prayer from the siddur. Hitbodeduth is essential to another basic emphasis in Rebbe Nachman’s teachings: tikun hamidoth – the path of personal and inter-personal development.
--- End quote ---
Tag-MehirTzedek:
Muman I will respond to what you highlighted from the article
"For example: Would people who cannot properly provide for their children somehow find the money to fly to Uman one, two and three times a year were it not for the Qabalistic significance that they attach to such a trip?"
You don't see this as a problem? Going to Uman, especially while being close to broke is very problematic not to mention leaving Israel to go to the exile (Ukraine). Other Rabbis including Rav Mordechi Eliyahu, Rav Ovadia yosef and others (including Askeansi Rabbis) not just Rav Bar Hayim talk against these things. leaving Israel to travel to the Ukrain. Are their no graves of Holy Tzaddikim in Israel? On top of that with this example you brough their are fathers who cannot provide for their children yett they travel to Uman. you don't see that as a problem? And even if they have $, why leave Israel to go there? Why not spend Rosh Hashana with the family the way it is suppoed to be?
Judaism has, for many, been turned into a circus, an orgy of primitive superstitions.
Read what was said right before that and what exactly he is referring to. I won't requote it for space. Just reread it. You don't see a problem with all these things like "Kabbalah candles", red strings, Kabbalah water (Yes it exists) and other such shtuyot.
The most glaring example is the criminal passivity and delusional attitude towards Redemption that is evident wherever Qabala thrives. In this sense, Qabala and Zionism are diametrically opposed, and to the extent that Judaism in general was influenced by such thinking, particularly over the last 5 centuries,
the zohar (written in the Galut) is VERY passive. People generally bring statements from the Zohar that are completly passive and not encouraging an active role to the redemption. For example Temple falling from the heavens, or even when against the Arabs thngs like G-D shaking the Ishmaelim like the crumbs from a table. These are midrashic statements and people (I have seen this over and over again) bring these things as statments encouraging passivity. G-D will do this or that, not us.
Israel Chai:
it will from the sky, after I blow the evil one up.
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