To Whom Qabala May Concern — The Authenticity of the Zohar –Update 02

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

And regarding the comment about the Temple coming from heaven. That idea DOES NOT come from the Zohar but the Talmud.

 It is mentioned in the Zohar and those who go by it (including the Ben Ish Chai). I had it quoted to me by those who tell me not to worry about the Temple because it will fall from the sky. And this happened more than once.

 It is mentioned by Rashi in the Talmudh, but it is outright rejected by the Talmudh itself.
 
The Third Bet Hamikdash - From Heaven or From Earth?

 http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/43-philosophy/520-the-third-bet-hamikdash-from-heaven-or-from-earth

 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

By the way Muman, I am just listening to someone now (no names), and he just said the word "reincarnation" like 20 times in a minute. And that being born is a "punishment". These are exactly the attitudes that will and do leave the Jewish nation in complete distress and cause problems instead of hoping and building a proper good future for the nation.

[Israel Chai]

My family was butchered or fled from Spain because they said their kaballah was witchcraft. I apply to rule of: if someone hates Jews for it, its not true. As for people misrepresenting the kaballah, if they say its a new age thing, don't listen to them [or pay them]. I still learn more thinking about what I learned then I do in a semester of capitalist hating college.

[Zelhar]

My family was butchered or fled from Spain because they said their kaballah was witchcraft. I apply to rule of: if someone hates Jews for it, its not true. As for people misrepresenting the kaballah, if they say its a new age thing, don't listen to them [or pay them]. I still learn more thinking about what I learned then I do in a semester of capitalist hating college.

They were persecuted and expelled just because they were Jews and refused to convert to Catholicism.

[Israel Chai]

They were persecuted and expelled just because they were Jews and refused to convert to Catholicism.

I'm pretty sure the Jewish part was enough, but they still need to pretend like they're good butchers. Saying kaballah is witchcraft gives serial killers a pretty little dress to wear.

[Israel Chai]

Jews have also been persecuted for being communists.  This does not mean that communism is true Judaism or that there is validity to communism.

The analogy isn't the same, commieism is bad and not Jewish, while Kaballah is good and Jewish. Don't promote the idea that Zohar is bad (I disagree with the analogy that the fact it says the temple will fall from the sky, or etc. encourages passivity. To the contrary, it encourages me not only to do it, but work really hard to make it fit in. And nothing about Jews returning home wasn't magical...), or secularnazist (a.k.a. murderreligiousjews) will come back and promote that as a way of sneaking in. Even if they'll try to massacre us again regardless, don't make it easy for them to look holy when they're at it.

[muman613]

The analogy isn't the same, commieism is bad and not Jewish, while Kaballah is good and Jewish. Don't promote the idea that Zohar is bad (I disagree with the analogy that the fact it says the temple will fall from the sky, or etc. encourages passivity. To the contrary, it encourages me not only to do it, but work really hard to make it fit in. And nothing about Jews returning home wasn't magical...), or secularnazist (a.k.a. murderreligiousjews) will come back and promote that as a way of sneaking in. Even if they'll try to massacre us again regardless, don't make it easy for them to look holy when they're at it.

Indeed most people I talk to {mostly Chassidic} do not believe that the Temple will fall from heaven. The way to hasten the messianic redemption is through bringing more Jews back to pure emunah and bitachon in Hashem, performing mitzvot, and doing all we can to ensure unity among all Jews.

There is no problem in questioning the sources... But to continuously do so will cause more divisions, and eventually {as you suggest} will invite attacks from outside.

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1128794/jewish/Particularly-Propitious-Mitzvot.htm

By Naftali Silberberg

Maimonides (Laws of Teshuvah 3:4) exhorts every individual to view himself, and the entire world as well, as being equally "weighted" with sins and mitzvot. The scale is standing still, and any one deed will tip the scale—both the individual's personal scale, as well as the global scale. Any one mitzvah can potentially bring salvation and redemption to the individual and the entire world.

As such, when discussing how to hasten the Redemption, the most basic answer is quite simple: jump at every mitzvah opportunity that presents itself. You never know which mitzvah – and it can be any mitzvah – will be the proverbial "straw that breaks the camels back" and brings the Messianic Era.

Nevertheless, there are certain mitzvot that according to our sages have a greater connection to the Redemption, and their observance hastens the coming of Moshiach considerably more than others. Let's discuss several such mitzvot (in no particular order).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

   No one is saying that Kabbalha is "witchcraft" and other such suggestions. We are talking about some ideas, some ideas that we (I at least) am agains't. Do people read the posts in their entirety?
 And Muman- that is good to hear, again I am talking about the ideas where such things are problematic. We are addressing some problems

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Do you see what is going on?

[muman613]

Do you see what is going on?

I believe Tag is trying to highlight an issue which he considers problematic. Just stating that there are issues with Kabbalah is not the same as calling it witchcraft. I do agree that Kabbalah has become a confusing point and is not something we should spend a great deal of time discussing.

I just get defensive because a good deal of Chassidut has Kabbalistic ideas and I am afraid that good Jews may be painted with a bad brush...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

For the record, their were great Talmedi Hachamim, Yirah Shemayim who accepted the Zohar and similar such works. (Also those who rejected as well).

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

NOT Tag!

[Israel Chai]

I think Ephraim hates me. Anyways, nobody here suggested the kaballah is witchcraft, and neither did I make such an accusation, only that in Spain that's what they said, and indeed to an ignorant person a temple falling from the sky is all too mystical.

I do not believe the writer was worried we wouldn't get out of the way, nor intended his words to start the great Jewish sky-watching age. Whatever his purpose, I hear temple falls from the sky, and I stock up on c4 for the current abomination, or I hear Jerusalem's women get raped and G-d comes to fight, and I build holy nukes for him to play with.

I am not in the habit of denying Jewish holy texts, but I don't view things passively, as I never see the intention of a verse as being: do nothing. You were given a brain that works, and any and everything that happens was supposed to, so learning more from kaballah and trying to apply the prophesy or lessons in your life is the purpose, not saying: my life is complete, I have no need to help destiny and should sit.

Saying it's wrong is where the rabbi went off, I believe that interpretations that encourage an active role should be taught where disagreement arises, but of course they should be stated as what they are, because believing a man's interpretation of something holy as holy leads to heresy.

And Ephraim, I peed in your soup.

[muman613]

I think Ephraim hates me. Anyways, nobody here suggested the kaballah is witchcraft, and neither did I make such an accusation, only that in Spain that's what they said, and indeed to an ignorant person a temple falling from the sky is all too mystical.

I do not believe the writer was worried we wouldn't get out of the way, nor intended his words to start the great Jewish sky-watching age. Whatever his purpose, I hear temple falls from the sky, and I stock up on c4 for the current abomination, or I hear Jerusalem's women get raped and G-d comes to fight, and I build holy nukes for him to play with.

I am not in the habit of denying Jewish holy texts, but I don't view things passively, as I never see the intention of a verse as being: do nothing. You were given a brain that works, and any and everything that happens was supposed to, so learning more from kaballah and trying to apply the prophesy or lessons in your life is the purpose, not saying: my life is complete, I have no need to help destiny and should sit.

Saying it's wrong is where the rabbi went off, I believe that interpretations that encourage an active role should be taught where disagreement arises, but of course they should be stated as what they are, because believing a man's interpretation of something holy as holy leads to heresy.

And Ephraim, I peed in your soup.

I fail to see where Ephraim said anything intended to offend you... Could you please clear up what it is which makes you feel this way?

[Israel Chai]

I fail to see where Ephraim said anything intended to offend you... Could you please clear up what it is which makes you feel this way?

He keeps accusing me of things, since I came. He implied I was in league with secularnazist, and here he implies that I seek to do something bad or another. I'm not actually offended, I don't speak when I'm mad. I just like it when people express emotion, because its so easy to know exactly how they'll react and play with them (well fun for me), and I was once told that if you give an idiot enough rope, they hang themselves. I tried that a couple times, but no, Ephraim is not dumb, but emotional yes, so I drag that lease around until he realizes that he's holding his own collar on. Tough love, I don't take sides with personal development, and its why all my friends love me.

[muman613]

He keeps accusing me of things, since I came. He implied I was in league with secularnazist, and here he implies that I seek to do something bad or another. I'm not actually offended, I don't speak when I'm mad. I just like it when people express emotion, because its so easy to know exactly how they'll react and play with them (well fun for me), and I was once told that if you give an idiot enough rope, they hang themselves. I tried that a couple times, but no, Ephraim is not dumb, but emotional yes, so I drag that lease around until he realizes that he's holding his own collar on. Tough love, I don't take sides with personal development, and its why all my friends love me.

Well, I don't think you have any bad intention here. And I believe Ephraim also is here for good reasons. We all need to be able to express our thoughts and beliefs in a way which others can understand. This is a challenge in a forum where we don't see or hear each other, and sometimes what we write doesn't exactly fit what we are trying to say.

I believe both LKZ and Ephraim are supportive of the ideas of Kabbalah whether or not the Zohar is 100% authentic as suggested {concerning complete authorship by R. Simon Bar Yochai}. I too feel this way, and I believe Tag is also lenient concerning belief in Kabbalistic ideas... We all are on the same page, although we all have differing understanding, and this is fine according to me.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

He just admitted to saying  things to get under my skin. He also makes statements that can be interpreted two different ways. And sometimes even backwards.

That being said... If he is here to help the JTF and worship Hashem then I will back off!

 My apologies LKZ.

[Israel Chai]

He just admitted to saying  things to get under my skin. He also makes statements that can be interpreted two different ways. And sometimes even backwards.

That being said... If he is here to help the JTF and worship Hashem then I will back off!

 My apologies LKZ.

If it gets under your skin, then there are words that can be said to initiate an expected response in you. Man up, nobody can afford a weak link. Your emotions make you easy to control, if you do not control them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

D

I think Ephraim hates me. Anyways, nobody here suggested the kaballah is witchcraft, and neither did I make such an accusation, only that in Spain that's what they said, and indeed to an ignorant person a temple falling from the sky is all too mystical.

Call it names if you like, but to me that is indeed far too mystical and quite frankly not how the world works (not how G-d made it).  I think it is foolish to believe the temple will fall from the sky nowadays and blind to think that "inspiring pure bitachon" will do more to bring about a Jewish temple than say "encouraging fulfillment of the mitzvah of aliyah/settling the land of israel" would.  Logic dictates that a jewish presence in the land of israel lends itself to the possibility of building a temple, while pure bitachon in borough park does not (although, good for them if they achieve some high level of bitachon, but guess what, part of bitachon is trusting in G-d by settling His land).

[Israel Chai]

D
Call it names if you like, but to me that is indeed far too mystical and quite frankly not how the world works (not how G-d made it).  I think it is foolish to believe the temple will fall from the sky nowadays and blind to think that "inspiring pure bitachon" will do more to bring about a Jewish temple than say "encouraging fulfillment of the mitzvah of aliyah/settling the land of israel" would.  Logic dictates that a jewish presence in the land of israel lends itself to the possibility of building a temple, while pure bitachon in borough park does not (although, good for them if they achieve some high level of bitachon, but guess what, part of bitachon is trusting in G-d by settling His land).

... sometimes prophesy is metaphors. If it is G-d's word than if it doesn't make sense you have to try and understand it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

... sometimes prophesy is metaphors. If it is G-d's word than if it doesn't make sense you have to try and understand it.

 What It is not G-D's word as you put it. No where in the Tannach is that written. The idea is also rejected in the Talmudh.

[Israel Chai]

What It is not G-D's word as you put it. No where in the Tannach is that written. The idea is also rejected in the Talmudh.

The point is it doesn't necessarily have to mean falling from the sky, but a metaphor indicating something that the Talmudh would agree with.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

The point is it doesn't necessarily have to mean falling from the sky, but a metaphor indicating something that the Talmudh would agree with.

 Could be a metaphor for the Kedusha, BUT the Kedusha never left the place that is why some say that one can't go to the place assuming one is impure, BUT to rebuttle them they are also wrong since the majority are impure with Tumat Met, we can go to the different places and give sacrifices even today.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Very interesting Tag!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

... sometimes prophesy is metaphors. If it is G-d's word than if it doesn't make sense you have to try and understand it.

What prophesy are you talking about?  You just make up your own or you're referring to a specific quote?

The whole point of prophesy (REAL prophesy recorded in tanach, the neviim, NOT zohar which is not prophesy and not even the biggest kabbalist tries to claim it's nevuah) being in metaphors is that it doesn't make sense to take it literally ( if indeed a given prophesy is a metaphor).  And here you are referring to some yet unknown passage as a metaphor but saying I have to believe it literally.  Understanding a metaphor literally is a contradiction in terms!