Author Topic: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.  (Read 4941 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« on: May 23, 2012, 05:54:29 PM »
Hi,
  I would like to ask, how much are you willing to compromise if at all. Should or shouldn't some differences be put aside to fight for common cause amoung the right-wing in Israel or not?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 06:10:02 PM by Tag-MehirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 08:52:33 PM »
Hi,
  I would like to ask, how much are you willing to compromise if at all. Should or shouldn't some differences be put aside to fight for common cause amoung the right-wing in Israel or not?

 Too vague a question.  Are there specific people you're referring to?  And compromise on what?  Some things simply cannot be compromised.  All the currently existing political parties in Israel are willing to compromise on very fundamental and existential principles.  There cannot really be common ground w people who forfeit basic foundational claims of identity and national rights.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2012, 09:02:27 PM »
Hi,
  I would like to ask, how much are you willing to compromise if at all. Should or shouldn't some differences be put aside to fight for common cause amoung the right-wing in Israel or not?

I talk about doing that sort of thing in my video about Romney versus Obama. Basically we know that Romney is a liberal, not that much further right than Obama on many issues. However we also know that he will be better for Israel than Obama and also better for the USA than Obama. Since we only get the pick one of them, and Romney is the lesser of evils, then I feel justified in doing pro-Romney videos even though I disagree with him on many important issues.

Offline Meerkat

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2012, 09:58:41 PM »
I'm willing to compromise on quite a bit, im willing to work with people who prefer a social democracy/mixed economy nanny state, even if i do find the idea crazy. on social issues im not even conservative, but im willing to compromise that, thats why im on this forum.

One thing I will never compromise on is issues relating to Israel's security. be'ezrat hashem, the idea of surrendering land for "peace" will become the absolute 3rd rail of Israeli politics. on top of that, the arabs must go, Israel must be independent of foreign aid, and all the other stuff JTF/Hayamin have as their core issues.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2012, 10:00:12 PM »
Too vague a question.  Are there specific people you're referring to?  And compromise on what?  Some things simply cannot be compromised. 

 That's specifically my question. on what can or will he compromise and on what no. I guess my question was somewhat in response to the video made on Ben Ari etc. (I guess you can include Manhigut Yeyudit as well)
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 06:31:52 AM »
There will never be.compromises on what Gd mandates on us.  Everything else is ok.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 11:04:45 AM »
There will never be.compromises on what Gd mandates on us.  Everything else is ok.

 How is that not much different then for example what some Haredim in Jerusalem say and believe (from the old Yishuv) ? And I'm under the impression that JTF is against them.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 05:43:40 PM »
How is that not much different then for example what some Haredim in Jerusalem say and believe (from the old Yishuv) ? And I'm under the impression that JTF is against them.

Which haredim? What do they say
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 06:22:52 PM »
Which haredim? What do they say

 Different one's. For example the Eida Haredias who are from the old Yishuv meaning they came to Israel before the "zionists". They are mostly the descendants of the students of the Vilna Gaon. They don't recognize the rulership of the state of Israel upon them. For the very least because the rulers who came later and took over were/are secular and not religious.
 Not too sure if we can lump the Neturi Karta along with them as well. At least the NK in Jerusalem (not the one's in Londo or Monsey).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 07:43:21 PM »
How is that not much different then for example what some Haredim in Jerusalem say and believe (from the old Yishuv) ? And I'm under the impression that JTF is against them.

Clearly we have different opinions from them on what God requires of us!  Isn't that obvious?

I don't see any comparison w some stubborn nk jerks who think that being from the old yishuv wins an argument.  You asked how we're different, I would ask you how are we in any way similar?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 07:46:27 PM »
I don't believe that ALL the students of the gaon who made aliyah fall under the edah charedis- afterall, isn't ita chassidic court?  Doesn't even make sense that any of them would associate with it

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 08:40:54 PM »
I don't understand how someone in NK can live in Israel and still spout their BS. Aren't they by default following Zionism if they live in Israel, regardless of their beliefs and opinions?

Offline muman613

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 08:45:13 PM »
I don't understand how someone in NK can live in Israel and still spout their BS. Aren't they by default following Zionism if they live in Israel, regardless of their beliefs and opinions?

NK was in Israel before the modern state was established...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 09:00:57 PM »
Hi,
  I would like to ask, how much are you willing to compromise if at all. Should or shouldn't some differences be put aside to fight for common cause amoung the right-wing in Israel or not?

Regarding the original question:

My opinion is that some things we can make compromise on in order to achieve the greater good. Being that I consider myself a Right-Wing 'Kahanist' there are many people I talk to who don't agree with me on many issues. I do not attempt to 'convert' them to agree with my view but I attempt to search for ways to make the Kahanist message more 'palatable' to them. Eventually, through concerted efforts, I do see that people eventually come around and see that the Kahanist message is fully logical and our ideology becomes more acceptable to the Jewish people. Of course I don't expect to be able to influence everyone. But I have witnessed the slow slide to the right over a period of years.

So in summary... We don't have to agree with everyone. We should agree on things which will ultimately achieve the long term goal of establishing a JEWISH state which is grounded in Torah law that stands up against foreign pressure to commit suicide by giving land to our enemies.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 09:28:36 PM »
NK was in Israel before the modern state was established...

So they don't have a problem with Jews living in Israel, they just don't like the Israeli government? Isn't living in the land a form of Zionism anyway though?

Offline muman613

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2012, 09:39:04 PM »
So they don't have a problem with Jews living in Israel, they just don't like the Israeli government? Isn't living in the land a form of Zionism anyway though?

I am no expert but the story I hear is that they lived in Israel as descendants of the First & Second Aliyah and lived under the Muslim rulership. They were content living as Dhimmis in the land waiting for the coming of Moshiach. They never did accept the non-religious Jewish rule of the land as there is a Talmudic discussion of the 'Three Oaths' which have been discussed in the Torah section from time to time. One of the Oaths which the Jewish people swore is that they would not take the land which exiled them by force without the permission of the nations. I have discussed this with several of my Rabbis and all of them believe that the Oaths are no longer binding because one of the oaths required that the nations not oppress the Jewish people and we all know how that worked out...

http://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3970

Quote
The Gemara in Ketubot (111a) derives from the triple mention of the pasuk, "I have bound you in oath, O daughters of Jerusalem" (Shir Hashirim), that Hashem bound Am Yisrael and the nations of the world with three oaths. The first oath is, "shelo yaalu bachoma," that the Jews should not forcibly, "break through the wall," and enter Eretz Yisrael. The second is that the Jews should not rebel against the nations. The third is that the nations of the world should not oppress Yisrael too much over the course of the exile. According to R. Zera, there are three additional oaths which relate to the ultimate redemption. The Gemara concludes with the threat that if Israel violates these oaths, their flesh will be made free like wild animals in the field, i.e., Hashem would bring upon them great suffering and physical destruction.

http://www.mevaseret.org/mmy/Shiurim/Rabbi%20Haber/Yom%20HaAtzmaut%20in%20Halacha%20and%20Hashkafa.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2012, 09:40:08 PM »
Our movement doesn't agree with rulership of Israel and kahanists live in Israel.  The ultimate truth is that current day Israel at the least is part of biblical Israel Gd promised to our forefathers and us.  So an anti zionists haredi understands this truth as much as a kahanist who is against the government of Israel.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2012, 09:43:45 PM »
I don't believe that ALL the students of the gaon who made aliyah fall under the edah charedis- afterall, isn't ita chassidic court?  Doesn't even make sense that any of them would associate with it

 Yea many Chassidic groups (especially Satmar Hussids), but the Perushim as well. Very ironic, but it is what it is.
 
 "The Edah is mainly formed by people whose ancestors arrived in Jerusalem and the Land of Israel long before the founding of the State of Israel. Many of them maintain the classical customs of Jerusalem — the Yerushalmi minhagim — such as the gold kaftan worn on Shabbos. Nowadays, the groups include: Satmar, Dushinsky, Toldos Aharon, Toldos Avrohom Yitzchok, Spinker, Brisk, Sanz-Tshokave, Perushim, a faction of Breslover hasidim led by Rabbi Yaakov Meir Shechter and Mishkenos HoRoim."


.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2012, 09:44:43 PM »
Politics requires diplomacy, and you can only get past disagreements with it. If you dress naked with a sign and scream "the arab is now" you aren't helping anyone, but yes, its right to say "even if that didn't happen, I'd be happier with this thing we both agree on, but I encourage you to see the need behind my point of view, and try to solve it if my solution is wrong, for example, and then you can get them to talk about their point of view of yours', and now they're at least thinking about it. If they're strongly opinionated either way, it just gets stronger.

I would never say "yes, teach kids they're monkeys that should all have been aborted". I would say, this guy's got the idea on a couple issues, and we need him if count commie is running, [and add, if you want] but I hope he changes his stance on these other critical issues.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2012, 09:47:36 PM »
I am no expert but the story I hear is that they lived in Israel as descendants of the First & Second Aliyah and lived under the Muslim rulership. They were content living as Dhimmis in the land waiting for the coming of Moshiach. They never did accept the non-religious Jewish rule of the land as there is a Talmudic discussion of the 'Three Oaths' which have been discussed in the Torah section from time to time. One of the Oaths which the Jewish people swore is that they would not take the land which exiled them by force without the permission of the nations. I have discussed this with several of my Rabbis and all of them believe that the Oaths are no longer binding because one of the oaths required that the nations not oppress the Jewish people and we all know how that worked out...

http://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3970

http://www.mevaseret.org/mmy/Shiurim/Rabbi%20Haber/Yom%20HaAtzmaut%20in%20Halacha%20and%20Hashkafa.htm

 Its Aggadita and was never binding to begin with. You don't see in any serious Poskim bringing this as Halacha. Its an Aggaditic statement teaching a moral lesson. Some made a whole ideology of something they do not even know. Anyway also Rav kahane ZTKL HYD addresses this issue in Or Harayon.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2012, 09:53:13 PM »
Its Aggadita and was never binding to begin with. You don't see in any serious Poskim bringing this as Halacha. Its an Aggaditic statement teaching a moral lesson. Some made a whole ideology of something they do not even know. Anyway also Rav kahane ZTKL HYD addresses this issue in Or Harayon.

Yes, every discussion of this issue states that the Oaths never were considered Halacha...

The first site I linked argues against this line of reasoning with the following points:


1) Rav Teitelbaum's claim rests on the fact that there was a "choma," that the nations of the world prohibited the Jews from settling in the land of Israel. The Avnei Nezer writes that this oath does not apply when the nations give Yisrael permission to return. Following the Balfour Declaration and the San Remo Conference, in which the nations of the world determined that the Jewish people have a right to settle the land of Israel, the oaths do not apply. The Midrash hints to this idea, that if Bnei Yisrael have permission to enter the land they do not violate the oaths.

2) Another answer is that once there is a sign from Hashem to return to the land, the oaths no longer apply. In addition to the permission given by the nations, the national reawakening and birth of modern Zionism can be viewed as a sign from Hashem that it is permissible to return to the land. The oaths were not an "issur" (absolute prohibition), but rather national tendencies that Hashem instilled within Klal Yisrael which would cause them to remain unmotivated to return to their land. Also, throughout most of the exile, it was very difficult physically for Jews to return to Eretz Yisrael. Once a wide scale movement with an objective to return to Eretz Yisrael began, and it was physically possible to begin Aliya to Eretz Yisrael, it became clear that the oath was no longer in effect.

3) The Gemara in Sanhedrin (98a) says that when Eretz Yisrael gives forth fruit abundantly, it is a sure sign that the redemption is coming. Eretz Yisrael, in the time of the Zionist movement, began blooming and giving forth fruits unlike any previous time since the destruction of the land. This sign of redemption showed that the oath was no longer in effect.

3) Rav Teichtal, in his work, "Em Habanim Smeicha," offers another explanation. Although the Jews were sworn not to enter Eretz Yisrael forcefully, the nations of the world were also sworn not to persecute the Jews too much. Over the course of the exile, the Jews were severely persecuted by the gentiles. Because the gentiles violated their oath, the Jews were no longer bound by their oath.

4) According to some opinions, the only way to violate the oath would be if people came to Eretz Yisrael in very large groups. Since the Jews entered the land slowly, and over the course of many years, they did not violate the oath.

5) The author of the "Hafla'ah" maintains that the oaths only apply to those who are in the exile of Bavel, and not in other lands.

6) R' Chaim Vital explains that the oath only applied for 1000 years, not longer.

7) The Gra writes that the oath applies only to building the Beit Hamikdash, not to entering Eretz Yisrael.

8) Elsewhere in the Gemara there are other, conflicting, sources. Furthermore, the Gemara regarding the "Three Oaths" is aggada, and we do not decide halacha based on aggada.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2012, 09:53:23 PM »
Clearly we have different opinions from them on what G-d requires of us!  Isn't that obvious?

I don't see any comparison w some stubborn nk jerks who think that being from the old yishuv wins an argument.  You asked how we're different, I would ask you how are we in any way similar?

 It is, but are we against the government suddenly once they are against an aspect of the Torah mainly giving up on Jewish land and property, or agaist them in principle because they are secular in nature and not according to the Torah.
 Also another example are the courts, how do we relate to them? No because they are leftists? No because they aren't religious. What if they weren't leftists but pro land of Israel yett secular? Or what if had some religious Jews in the court yett didn't go by the Torah fully? (Their are many questions here to ask).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2012, 10:40:54 PM »
I don't understand how someone in NK can live in Israel and still spout their BS. Aren't they by default following Zionism if they live in Israel, regardless of their beliefs and opinions?

They claim they are willing to be personal donkeys of the arabs and that living there is fine but having a state or any political power as a Jewish entity is not.  So if the zionism could just get out of the way, the nk old yishuv throwbacks (and modern day cult followers) would be free to be the dhimmis they've always dreamed of.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2012, 10:45:48 PM »
Oh and one more thing about the nk trash.  These selfish ignorant fools, in addition to their illustrious argument of "we were here before the state" they also insult the Jewish people by constantly claiming "we had no problems with the arabs" - a true slap in the face to every victim of the hebron massacre and all the other arab riots, a slap in the face to every family member of those victims, and to every Jew.  Who exactly is "WE" ?  Your one block in meah shearim where the muktar ingratiated himself with the local arab imam ? That represents the entire Jewish people and entire Jewish experience in Israel?  These guys are nuts and their arrogance drives me nuts.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Open Question to Chaim, the forum members as well.
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2012, 05:24:46 AM »
Thank you Muman and Dan