Franchise anthropologist Richard Leakey: Evolution debate will soon be history

[Zelhar]

The out of africa theory has a competitor today, and the competing hypothesis grows in popularity.

Do you mean what Rubystars mentioned, that Homo Sapience mixed with some other humanoids to create the modern population in Eurasia ?

[Israel Chai]

... I never met another humanoid.

[Rubystars]

... I never met another humanoid.

For lack of better terms, humanity used to be a little more "diverse" than it is today. The neanderthals and erectus were human (they used tools and fire and are thought to have been capable of speech, and neanderthals at least wore clothing and made spears and specialized stone tools too) but they were anatomically different from what we would consider 'modern' humans, which lived along side them for some periods of time and may have mixed somewhat with them.

It wasn't too terribly long ago, only about 30,000 years ago. To put that in perspective it was around 15,000 years ago that agricultural societies starting springing up, so about twice as long.

[Zelhar]

My guess is every time 'modern' humans came into contact with Neanderthals they exterminated them, probably making BBQ of the men and the children and keeping some of the women as mates.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/05/100506-science-neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

[Israel Chai]

For lack of better terms, humanity used to be a little more "diverse" than it is today. The neanderthals and erectus were human (they used tools and fire and are thought to have been capable of speech, and neanderthals at least wore clothing and made spears and specialized stone tools too) but they were anatomically different from what we would consider 'modern' humans, which lived along side them for some periods of time and may have mixed somewhat with them.

It wasn't too terribly long ago, only about 30,000 years ago. To put that in perspective it was around 15,000 years ago that agricultural societies starting springing up, so about twice as long.

Amino acid degeneration disproves the theory of 30,000 years of existence. Roman legionaries used to carry half their body weight for marathons of marching, and its plain to see cellular degeneration anywhere. I studied evolution and about 99% was outright disproved, and the rest was so wacky that there was no way to make a test to verify it. C14 readers see fossils age at several million years a month, because at a certain point this radioactive isotope does run out and the readers give near-infinite readings from 3000 years onward guaranteed.

The whole point of "agricultur[al]e" and "socie[ties]ty" springing up as our own ideas is a direct attack, saying that advancement, values that allow a group to survive and peaceful co-existence worked just fine before any G-d, that we we're doing just fine without any G-d, and that we do come from a lesser version of ourselves, so it is us that makes us advance and evolve, and not G-d creating us. It's to make up a system without G-d, then pretend it could work.

Everyone of these early humans turns up as a pig jaw on a man, a deformed skull, and a myriad of other hoaxes that you can't see without laughing at the maniacs that swear by them.

15,000 years, 30,000 years was before the Torah says G-d taught Adam. How did they figure out how to survive? The only way no G-d works is if they evolved from a lesser being that knew how to eat from early on. But then you've just swallowed the whole load that can never be proven, and the more information on it is available the more evident the absurdity of the mere concept is.

[Rubystars]

LCZ I can see you base your beliefs in the framework of young earth creationism and I won't try to convince you out of it because I don't want to damage your faith. I don't agree with any of the YEC claims but that's something you're going to have to decide for yourself. I've never heard of this "amino acid degeneration" stuff. I don't know if you're talking about telomeres or something else. If you choose to be a YEC then it's not hurting anybody but I'm not going to believe in a young earth.

[Rubystars]

My guess is every time 'modern' humans came into contact with Neanderthals they exterminated them, probably making BBQ of the men and the children and keeping some of the women as mates.

The last part would be really significant if they were interfertile.

[Israel Chai]

I'm not going to believe in a young earth.

Life. The earth came before, chronologically, in the beginning. No time frame is provided, but Torah does not disagree with an old earth, just young life. YEC you think I'm part of a group or something lol?

[Zelhar]

The last part would be really significant if they were interfertile.

Yes that was my intention. Because the current genetic evidence seems to suggest that The population of Eurasia and the Americas got some percentage (less then 10% I think) of their DNA from other humanoids. And at the same time it seems that the other humanoids were wiped out by the modern humans. It is very reasonable to assume that tribes of modern humans wouldn't suffer a competing group in their territory be it fully human or human-like.

[Israel Chai]

Yes that was my intention. Because the current genetic evidence seems to suggest that The population of Eurasia and the Americas got some percentage (less then 10% I think) of their DNA from other humanoids. And at the same time it seems that the other humanoids were wiped out by the modern humans. It is very reasonable to assume that tribes of modern humans wouldn't suffer a competing group in their territory be it fully human or human-like.

like nephilim?

[Zelhar]

like nephilim?

I haven't thought of that even though I have long been fascinated with the nephilim. But they are supposed to be super human, stronger and more advanced. they  took human females as mates and perhaps set themselves in fiefdoms, enslaving local humans.

[Israel Chai]

I haven't thought of that even though I have long been fascinated with the nephilim. But they are supposed to be super human, stronger and more advanced. they  took human females as mates and perhaps set themselves in fiefdoms, enslaving local humans.

They were only imprisoned for a time, so it's possible, but you can't know for sure. They also used wacky DNA tests to "prove" that fakestinians were the real inhabitants of Israel, and that Jews were Europeans that were pretending. And to "prove" the gay gene. Any of these DNA tests should be under serious scrutiny, especially where the researcher's conclusions are concerned.

[muman613]

Regarding the Jewish view of Nephlim:

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/289/Q3/

Dear Rabbi,

What are the "Nephilim" mentioned in the Torah?

Dear Glenn Slocum,

The Nephilim are mentioned twice in the Torah (Genesis 6, Numbers 13). "Nephilim" means "the fallen ones." They were people of giant stature. It is not clear how large they were, but were large enough to scare other people. The Targum Yerushalmi, which is a Midrash, explains that they were Angels who descended to the Earth. According to this they were called fallen ones because they fell from their heavenly stature. The Ramban explains otherwise, that they were the other children of Adam. Because Adam, the First Man, was the handiwork of G-d, his children were of greater physical stature than their descendants. Because these people were so close to the Creator, they knew that they had no grandfather, they should have been spiritually elevated. Because they didn't live up to their potential they were considered "fallen ones."

See also : http://www.ravkooktorah.org/BRAYSHIT60.htm

The Nephilim

Immediately before the story of Noah and a corrupted world, the Torah makes a passing mention of Nephilim, powerful giants who lived at that time.

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days. ... They were the mightiest ones ever, men of renown." (Gen. 6:4)
Who were these titans? Why does the Torah call them Nephilim?

The Midrash explains that they were called Nephilim because they fell (naphlu) and brought about the world's downfall (nephilah). These giants were catalysts for a great moral collapse of society.

Studying Foreign Languages

In 1906, fifteen-year-old Tzvi Yehuda Kook asked his father whether he should devote time to learning other languages. In his response, Rav Kook analyzed the relative importance of expertise in languages and rhetoric:

"We should aspire to help others, both our own people and all of humanity, as much as possible. Certainly, our influence will increase as we gain competence in various languages and speaking styles. ... But if perfecting these skills will come at the expense of analytic study, then this will reduce the true intellectual content in one's contribution to the world."
Some people mistake proficiency in many languages for intellectual greatness. This is not the case. Linguistic talents are merely tools. Genuine perceptiveness and intellectual insight are a function of how well one has established the foundations of one's own inner integrity.

To demonstrate his point, Rav Kook noted that the great Nephilim who brought about the world's moral collapse were "anshei shem." Usually translated as 'men of renown,' this phrase literally means 'men of names,' or 'men of words.' They were great leaders, skilled in the arts of persuasion and rhetoric. But their talents were an empty shell, devoid of inner content. On the contrary, they used their superficial eloquence for unscrupulous purposes.

It is interesting to contrast the Nephilim and their highly-developed oratorical skills with the individual responsible for bringing the Torah’s teachings to the world. The highest level of prophecy was transmitted through a man who testified about himself that he was not a man of words, but "heavy of mouth and heavy of tongue" (Ex. 4:10). Moses was not talented in rhetoric and lacked confidence in his communication skills. Nonetheless, his moral impact on the world is without equal in the history of mankind.

[Zelhar]

In Israel Peres, Rabin, Aba Eben and their generation were  called (are called with peres) favorably "The last of the generation of nephilim". But now I think it suits them because they were such an abysmal failure and didn't lived up to their potential.

[Meerkat]

They were only imprisoned for a time, so it's possible, but you can't know for sure. They also used wacky DNA tests to "prove" that fakestinians were the real inhabitants of Israel, and that Jews were Europeans that were pretending. And to "prove" the gay gene. Any of these DNA tests should be under serious scrutiny, especially where the researcher's conclusions are concerned.

actually, the DNA evidence seems to be in our favour. It does show Jews as being native to the middle east. genes regarding homosexuality are yet to be found.

[Rubystars]

Life. The earth came before, chronologically, in the beginning. No time frame is provided, but Torah does not disagree with an old earth, just young life. YEC you think I'm part of a group or something lol?

You can't really separate the two logically because older layers of rock contain older types of life remains, and younger layers of rock contain remains of later-existing life.

YEC stands for young earth creationist. Since you don't believe life was around for more than a few thousand years my thought is you must have been listening to some of their teachings to get that idea.

[Israel Chai]

You can't really separate the two logically because older layers of rock contain older types of life remains, and younger layers of rock contain remains of later-existing life.

YEC stands for young earth creationist. Since you don't believe life was around for more than a few thousand years my thought is you must have been listening to some of their teachings to get that idea.

Its sounds like a star-trek convention exercise club. And take a wild guess as to who said it before them.

[syyuge]

It appears that Nephilim were some ancient class of superior persons, who were dissolved and disappeared while running in the race of some type of primordial communism. It is like the future generations saying that Nephilims roamed in the west till the rule of George Bush. Then after they disappeared.

[Israel Chai]

It appears that Nephilim were some ancient class of superior persons, who were dissolved and disappeared while running in the race of some type of primordial communism. It is like the future generations saying that Nephilims roamed in the west till the rule of George Bush. Then after they disappeared.

half demon half man, read the book of enoch.

[muman613]

half demon half man, read the book of enoch.

That is not a part of Jewish scriptures. It is actually Apocryphal writing...

http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=283

What is the Book of Enoch?

The Book of Enoch bears the name of the Patriarch Enoch, great-grandfather of Noah, and consists of discourses on apocalyptic and cosmological subjects. Two such books are extant; both of them can be dated to Second Temple times. Both were probably originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, but were translated into Greek, and then into Ethiopic and Slavonic, respectively. For more details about the aggadic and apocryphal literature on Enoch, and about the two Books of Enoch, see Vol. 6 of the Encyclopedia Judaica, cols. 793-799.

http://www.rabbiwein.com/The-Book-of-Enochbr-The-Hebrew-Apocrypha-P857.html

The most mystical of the Apocrypha, this book was written to explain what happened when "G-d took Enoch." With descriptions of Heaven, angels, and the Messianic era, this book was unfortunately adopted by the Christian Church and its text was doctored. Because of this, the Jews now reject it, but its supernatural themes will undoubtedly fascinate all listeners.

Also, according to Jewish belief there are not 'Demons'.... All the angels are created by Hashem, for good or bad...


For an explanation of 'demons' see http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-date/2010/11/?p=3752


http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-date/2010/06/?p=3660

The Apocrypha
Question: Can anyone tell me anything about the Book of Jubilees (the Little Genesis/Apocolypse of Moses), the I and II Book of Adam, the Book of Noah, and the Book of Enoch? I understand a Rabbi’s main focus is within the Torah, but somebody has to know something of the ancient scrolls.

Answer: The Apocrypha are books that were deemed to be unsubstantiated and containing errors by the Men of the Great Assembly who decided on which books would be included in the Canon. Of the books of the Apocrypha, the Book of Maccabees (the Hasmonean Scroll) is the only one that is sometimes referenced for its historical information. Judaism pretty much ignores all of the others.

All the Best,
Rabbi Azriel Schreiber

According to some Jewish sources it appears that Enoch may have become the Arch-Angel Metatron:

http://blog.kblh.org/?p=16

Metatron - Enoch
Q: Was Enoch turned into the angel Metatron?
A: Chanoch (Enoch) was a great Tzaddik according to most sources, he was a shoemaker and with each stitch he united the worlds and Hashem, so when the world turned further evil, Hashem removed him from the world, alive, and turned him into the angel Metatron, who is so Holy we do not pronounce his name.

We just say the first two letters Mem Tes or some say Metat.

The angels in heaven were at first appalled to see a human “young man” come to heaven, so Hashem protected him and elevated him to a high level, so it appears that even other angels serve under him. In Kabbalah he is called a Na’ar, a young man, relative to the old ages of his time, since he was removed from the world. Mem Tes has many alternate names in the Kabbalah books. He is talked about frequently in the Heichalos literature, which is early kabbalistical writings of the names of the chambers and angels in heaven.

He is often connected with the world of Yetsirah, formation, and acts as the masculine figure in that world.

Some Tzaddikim have merited to have Mem Tes reveal himself to them and teach them Torah. When the four Rabbis entered the Orchard they saw Mem Tes and some of them became confused from this and lost their way, except for Rabbi Akiva. The famous Book of Enoch in the Apocrypha was not included into Torah even though the Christians put it in their biblical writings. we do not use it or rely on it. It was written from borrowed sources from the Midrash, Heichalos etc.

The other person who was turned into an angel was Eliyahu Hanavi, Elijah the prophet.

[Israel Chai]

No demons? Then who works for the devil? All this trouble by one shiny cherub?

[muman613]

No demons? Then who works for the devil? All this trouble by one shiny cherub?

Again, the Jewish idea of Satan is not the same as the Christian concept of the 'Devil'. Satan is the Angel of Death and the Evil Inclination. If you are interested in what has been written about this topic I will post more in the Jewish section some day soon. This indeed is a very deep topic and much can be learned from the Book of Iyov/Job...

Here is a bit of this idea:

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/shelach65.htm

Evil inclination

As the Talmud explains (Bava Basra 16a) the Satan, the evil inclination, and the angel of death are all one and the same. He first comes to test and challenge the person. If the person fails and does wrong he will be the accuser in the Heavenly Court and eventually will be the punishing angel of death to meet out the punishment. In the beginning of the Book of Job, it is related how the Satan received permission from G'd to test the righteous Job with extreme suffering. Our evil inclination is an angel of G'd created to test and challenge us in order to help us to grow. No one is tested beyond their capabilities. Rather each person's evil inclination is tailor made to a person's abilities and strengths (see Avoda Zara 3a and Midrash Rabba Shemos 34:1).

New tests and tactics

The Talmud (Kidushin 30b) explains that the evil inclination of a person renews itself daily with new tests and new tactics all according to a person's situation and circumstance. Rav Moshe Chaim Luzatto (The Path of the Just, Chapter 1) writes that every situation that a person encounters is a test. On the one hand, poverty is a test; on the other, affluence is a test. Similarly, tranquility is a test and so is suffering. Luzatto further explains (The Ways of G'd, Part II, Ch.3) that in the same way any character trait is a test for a person. There are situations where mercifulness is a test and other situations where cruelty is a test. As our sages say (Midrash Koheles 7:33), the one who shows mercy to a cruel person will eventually be cruel to a merciful person. In one situation the evil inclination may use a person's ego to fail through pride. In another, it will diminish a person's self-esteem and bring a person to depression. Although in general modesty and low profile is the way of the Torah, this does not apply in every situation. As we find in Chronicles 2:17:6 where King Yehoshafot is praised for being proud walking in the ways of G'd.

[Dr. Dan]

To me, it doesn't matter if evolution or revolution or hobojovolution created what we have today.  What is amazing to me is how every living thing and nonliving thing in this world is perfectly made and that everything around us might as well be considered perfect accidents or perfect coincidences.  I'm sorry.  These atheists are dummies.  Everything we have here couldn't be a perfect accident.  There is a Creator.  And that creator is Gd.  The same one that gave the Torah not just to Moses but all the Jewish people, who witnessed this on Sinai.  And I know this to be true because Jews today carry on the unique traditions commanded to then thousands of years ago.  I know thus to be true because we have survived while being the weakling and minority.  I know this because Judaism did not stem out from other religions before it.  In fact Judaism is the opposite to more ancient religions and even different to many of today's religions.  Furthermore, Gd and his Torah to us is so real that Jews would rather die than forsake Gd and do the opposite.  Only self hating traitors wouldn't know any better.

So screw atheism.  Only people who believe in the real CREATOR will live and die by Him and not by those who will try to strip it away from us.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

AMEN!!!!!!