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Offline Maimonides

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Israel steps up relations with China
« on: May 28, 2012, 09:25:44 PM »
China should realize that Muslim oil will only be a short term advantage, because alternative sources of energy will be the future. That future lays with Israel, which has some of the best technology in the world.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2012/05/24/israel_steps_up_security_ties_with_china/?page=1

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JERUSALEM—After a prolonged chill, security ties between Israel and China are warming up.

With Israel offering much-needed technical expertise and China representing a huge new market and influential voice in the international debate over Iran's nuclear program, the two nations have stepped up military cooperation as they patch up a rift caused by a pair of failed arms deals scuttled by the U.S.

The improved ties have been highlighted by this week's visit to Beijing by Israel's military chief and a training mission to Israel by the Chinese paramilitary force that, among other things, polices the restive Tibetan and Muslim Uighur regions. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is expected to travel to China in the coming weeks.

After their meeting Monday, both China's chief of staff, Gen. Chen Bingde, and his Israeli counterpart, Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz, hailed the growing ties and held out the possibility of even closer military cooperation.

Chen told the official China Daily that China "attaches importance to the ties with the Israeli military and is willing to make concerted efforts with the Israeli side to deepen pragmatic cooperation."

In a statement released by the Israeli military, Gantz mentioned a commitment to developing the relationship, including "joint courses that are scheduled to take place." It did not elaborate.

Such comments are a remarkable turnaround from just a few years ago, when ties deteriorated after the failed arms deals.

Israel and China established diplomatic relations in 1992, and the two countries traded military technology for nearly a decade. Some military analysts believe that Israel helped China develop its J-10 fighter plane during the 1990s, a claim that both countries have denied.

These ties suffered a blow in 2000 when the U.S. pressured Israel to cancel the sale of a sophisticated radar system to China, fearing it could alter the balance of power with Taiwan. The cancellation infuriated China, cost Israel hundreds of millions of dollars, and frayed ties.

Then, in 2005, the U.S. persuaded Israel not to service spare parts for unmanned aircraft drones already sold to China, concerned that it would upgrade China's airborne anti-radar capability. Israel officials say that Israel has since halted weapons sales to China.

But in recent months, relations have begun to improve.In June 2011, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak traveled to China. Chen, the Chinese military chief, visited Israel in August, and in December, Israel's paramilitary Border Police unit hosted a delegation from the People's Armed Police.

During the monthlong course, "cadets were taught a variety of information, with an emphasis on fighting terror, dealing with disturbances, self defense, open field combat and more," according to an Israeli police statement. It was the first such exercise, police said.


This newfound cooperation has raised concerns among human rights advocates. Israel's Border Police serve on the front lines of anti-Israel demonstrations in the West Bank and have been accused of using excessive force dispersing crowds. It denies the allegations.Continued...

The People's Armed Police, or PAP, has also been accused of using excessive force, particularly in Tibet, a western region where the indigenous Buddhist population has pushed for independence.

Policing Tibet is a small part of a challenging mission. Believed to have as many as 1 million members, the PAP is responsible for asserting government control over a rapidly changing society beset by soaring numbers of protests, strikes and ethnic unrest by Tibetans and Muslim Uighurs on China's Central Asian frontier.

Set up in the early 1980s to take over domestic security from the armed forces, the PAP has been derided for much of its history as undisciplined. The units proved unfit to handle the Tiananmen Square democracy demonstrations in 1989, forcing the Communist Party to call in the People's Liberation Army.

In the past decade, the government has launched a full-force upgrade. It now has rapid-response, counterterrorism, anti-hijacking and other specialized units.

Nicholas Bequelin, a China researcher at Human Rights Watch, said PAP units engaged in "widespread abuses" in putting down a mass Tibetan uprising in 2008, using live ammunition against unarmed protesters, disappearances and other acts of disproportionate brutality.

He said the Israeli training "must include a human rights component, such as the principle of proportionate use of force."

Israeli officials rejected any notion of wrongdoing, saying that all cooperation was "transparent" and done with the full knowledge of the U.S. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were discussing a sensitive diplomatic issue.

The Chinese Embassy in Tel Aviv did not respond to a request for comment.

According to Israeli diplomats and analysts, the interests on both sides are clear. Israel has a strong interest in getting closer to a rising world power, while China is interested in Israeli military and technological know-how.

"I'm sure Israel does whatever it can to let the Chinese know that despite limitations on military transfers, Israel still has a strong will to attain good relations," said Yoram Evron, a China expert at Haifa University and the Institute for National Security Studies, a Tel Aviv think tank.

He said he believes the warming ties were initiated by the Chinese, who were caught off guard by the Arab Spring protests convulsing the region in the past year and a half.

"Due to the Arab Spring, China may have the impression, a stronger impression than before, that Israel is relatively stable compared with other players in the region," he said.


An Israeli diplomat involved in Asian affairs said the security ties are part of a larger blossoming of relations. China is now Israel's third-largest trade partner, after the European Union and United States. Bilateral trade exceeded $8 billion last year, roughly 20 percent higher than the previous year.

While those figures are minuscule for China, the diplomat noted that China is very interested in some key industries in which Israel has expertise. He cited Israeli water technologies in agriculture, desalination and wastewater management.

He said Israel has signed number of trade agreements with China in recent years, including a new scholarship program to bring 250 Chinese university students to Israel annually. It also has expanded its diplomatic presence in China with a new consulate in the city of Guangzhou, and another one set to open in Chengdu next year.

Israeli officials acknowledged their motives go beyond trade. They said they routinely raise concerns about Iran's nuclear program with China, which is both a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council and which relies on Iran for roughly 10 percent of its oil supply.

Israel, like the West, believes Iran is trying to build a nuclear bomb, and has hinted it will attack Iran if it concludes that international diplomatic efforts to stop Iran have failed. An Israeli attack could disrupt the flow of oil and send global energy prices skyrocketing, a nightmare scenario for China.

So far, the Israeli lobbying has yielded mixed results. China has helped pass four sets of economic sanctions against Iran, but has tried to dilute the language.


"We would like to see them taking more concrete steps because they have clout over Iran," the diplomat said. "We explain that if the issue is not resolved, it might affect stability in the Middle East."

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Offline maelgwyn

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 01:29:35 AM »
Good ! Because when China awakes ! :dance:

Offline syyuge

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 05:09:34 AM »
then that Red Dragon will shake the world! :o
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Offline realist26

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 06:31:48 AM »
Us foreign policy is so self destructive, Israel should feel free to sell any technology it pleases to china without any repercussions - so long as the Arabs don't get hold of it...

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2012, 10:42:05 AM »
Chinese are not stupid.  They are probably using the Israelis.  China has every reason to fear uprisings in its own country and israel has experience putting such things down, simple as that.  Wouldn't read too much into this.  China clearly loves the arabs and muslims

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2012, 04:44:17 PM »
You guys really trust the Chinese? You know they treat their people like slaves right? Can you really support that?
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Offline Maimonides

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2012, 08:58:57 PM »
Chinese are not stupid.  They are probably using the Israelis.  China has every reason to fear uprisings in its own country and israel has experience putting such things down, simple as that.  Wouldn't read too much into this.  China clearly loves the arabs and muslims

China does what is good for China, and Israel should do what is good for the Jews.

If Jewish and Chinese interests are aligned, as they appear to be, then that is good.
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Offline Maimonides

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2012, 09:00:02 PM »
You guys really trust the Chinese? You know they treat their people like slaves right? Can you really support that?

It is terrible, but if China wants to work with Israel, then that is in Israel's interests and should be pursued.
“You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes”- Maimonides

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2012, 09:09:00 PM »
China does what is good for China! What is good for China! Not for anyone else. China represents communism. Israel represents freedom. The two do not mix!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2012, 09:38:54 PM »
My pretty sure we have a JTFer that has experienced the communist government of China! And I have a very close and dear friend that spent years in a refugee camp as a result of the Chinese government. They are not one to be considered a friend!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2012, 12:07:14 AM »
China does what is good for China! What is good for China! Not for anyone else. China represents communism. Israel represents freedom. The two do not mix!

While this statement is incorrect, what he's pointing at isn't. The Chinese are an avowed United Nazi member that would invade Israel at the drop of a rupee. China represents a [loosing] contender for the world government, who knows that goal is unachievable as long as Israel exists.

Tactical consideration before sale to China: Who do they consider as better friends, Israel or Muslims?
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Offline maelgwyn

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2012, 12:28:11 AM »
Dont they have some trouble with some group of Muzzies on their soil ?

Offline Meerkat

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2012, 12:35:52 AM »
Dont they have some trouble with some group of Muzzies on their soil ?

Not that much at all. muzzies are not a significant minority in china. They have acted up before, but the chinese have squashed them in a way that should set an example to israel, america, and the others.

Offline Maimonides

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2012, 04:22:26 PM »
China does what is good for China! What is good for China! Not for anyone else. China represents communism. Israel represents freedom. The two do not mix!

During World War II the US worked with the Soviet Union to defeat the Nazis,  so sometimes opposites work together. In this case, Israel and China might find that it is better to work together even though they see the world in two different ways.
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Offline Maimonides

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2012, 04:23:42 PM »
My pretty sure we have a JTFer that has experienced the communist government of China! And I have a very close and dear friend that spent years in a refugee camp as a result of the Chinese government. They are not one to be considered a friend!

Nations are not friends with each other, they just use each other. The same is true with America and Israel, so if it is to Israel's advantage to pursue closer ties to China then that should be done.
“You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes”- Maimonides

Offline muman613

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2012, 04:40:17 PM »
Im wary of any alliance with China. The leaders of China are pretty brutal even to their own people. I know some Chinese Nationals and they are fearful of speaking against the state because of family members who have not been allowed to leave.

The one thing I can say positive is this.... It is better to be the friend of China than the enemy of China... China, so I understand, is assembling what will be the greatest armed forces on Earth... America will play second fiddle to China one day soon..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-military-spending-to-top-100-billion-this-year/2012/03/04/gIQAJRnypR_story.html

Quote
China military spending to top $100 billion in 2012, alarming neighbors
By Keith B. Richburg, Published: March 3

BEIJING — China’s Communist Party rulers plan to boost military spending by 11 percent this year, passing the $100 billion mark for the first time and renewing questions about the country’s long-term intentions.

The new spending plan comes as China’s neighbors are increasingly unnerved by the country’s growing assertiveness in pressing territorial claims and as the Obama administration has announced a strategic “pivot” to the Asia-Pacific region.

The new defense spending plans, outlined at the start of the annual session of China’s largely rubber-stamp legislature, would bring the official military budget to 670 billion yuan. That would be the equivalent of $106 billion and would amount to an increase of more than $10 billion over 2011.

Analysts outside China say the real defense outlay could be considerably higher if other areas, such as spending on outer space, are included.

The People’s Liberation Army has had years of double-digit budget increases. That has helped transform China’s military into a force capable of projecting power throughout the region and, increasingly, to faraway conflict zones such as the Somali coast, where pirates have harassed Chinese vessels and crews.

The defense budget for 2011 was $91.5 billion, which was a 12.7 percent increase over the 2010 budget.

China has also embarked on a program to build and acquire more sophisticated weaponry, including a home-built J-20 stealth fighter jet, which made a test flight last year, and China’s first aircraft carrier, a refurbished, unfinished Soviet-era vessel purchased in 1998 from Ukraine.
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Online cjd

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2012, 07:21:34 PM »
Chinese are not stupid.  They are probably using the Israelis.  China has every reason to fear uprisings in its own country and israel has experience putting such things down, simple as that.  Wouldn't read too much into this.  China clearly loves the arabs and muslims
I could not agree more...China is a country that abuses it's own population so what kind of relations can be put in place with a government such as that...  In my opinion China is only happy when they have the people they deal with over a barrel.... Israel is free to do as it sees fit however I don't see much more than some short term money making potential coming from any so called relationship between the two countries... Once China gets the upper hand in the relationship they tend become demanding... Just what Israel needs another political overseer.
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Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 08:15:06 PM »

The one thing I can say positive is this.... It is better to be the friend of China than the enemy of China... China, so I understand, is assembling what will be the greatest armed forces on Earth... America will play second fiddle to China one day soon..


That's exactly what I'm worried about! Who will stop them when they decide the world is theirs?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 08:16:36 PM »

Tactical consideration before sale to China: Who do they consider as better friends, Israel or Muslims?
Good point!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 08:19:30 PM »
I could not agree more...China is a country that abuses it's own population so what kind of relations can be put in place with a government such as that...  In my opinion China is only happy when they have the people they deal with over a barrel.... Israel is free to do as it sees fit however I don't see much more than some short term money making potential coming from any so called relationship between the two countries... Once China gets the upper hand in the relationship they tend become demanding... Just what Israel needs another political overseer.
I agree with both of you!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2012, 08:29:55 PM »
I think the Chinese government is one of the most evil in the world. Remember they FORCE near-term abortions on people to enforce their one child policy, even if a woman is just days away from giving birth. They do medical experiments on human beings too.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2012, 11:06:34 PM »
I think the Chinese government is one of the most evil in the world. Remember they FORCE near-term abortions on people to enforce their one child policy, even if a woman is just days away from giving birth. They do medical experiments on human beings too.
Very good point Ruby, in a communist world women are a lesser being! If Israel lets China get its claws in to her it is the end! They will slowly suck the life out of her ,as they have the U.S.  In the U.S this has been going on before WW2.( the commies anyway!)

Israel is the nation of G-d! And I highly doubt G-d will take kindly to the help of the evil commies!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Meerkat

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2012, 12:42:08 AM »
as long as the 2 countries have mutual interests, its ok for the 2 to be friends. maybe israel can try to positively influence china (long shot, but possible).

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2012, 07:40:35 AM »
Very good point Ruby, in a communist world women are a lesser being! If Israel lets China get its claws in to her it is the end! They will slowly suck the life out of her ,as they have the U.S.  In the U.S this has been going on before WW2.( the commies anyway!)

Israel is the nation of G-d! And I highly doubt G-d will take kindly to the help of the evil commies!

I don't believe that good and evil can be friends. Israel will suffer for trying to friendly with China just like the USA is receiving massive judgment for that and other sins.

Offline syyuge

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Re: Israel steps up relations with China
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2012, 07:57:09 AM »
Today china is controlling much economy of the US, tomorrow it may do it with all others including Israel. Today china is competing with US, tomorrow US will be competing with china, I mean if the present trend continues.
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