Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on June 06, 2012, 12:15:35 AM --- You said it before. You did attack him before without any logical explanation. If their was a point he made thasat you didn't agree with, fine. Prove it wrong (at least try), but to say he is this or that and one shouldn't listen to him is just like the leftists did to Rav Kahane. Defemation with no explanation because not being able to deal with the issues.
--- End quote ---
This. 100 times this.
You formulated it in a way I was failing at, but I'm thinking exactly along these lines. Hazak ubaruch
muman613:
KWRBT,
I was not addressing you in that message. Tag has posted things which I found myself in disagreement.
I now remember you telling me you study with Rabbi Bar Chayim. I apologize if I have offended you, this is not my intention.
When I say other streams of Judaism I am talking about Chassidus and Sephardic traditions which the Rabbi has said some things which I find offensive.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 06, 2012, 12:31:36 AM ---Also I have never seen a stream of Judaism which just listens to one Rabbi for all its decisions. Chabad is the most open
--- End quote ---
You can check almost every Chassidic group for starters. And Chabad is the best example of this (the Messianism of Chabad and clinging to their "Rebbe").
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 06, 2012, 12:33:03 AM ---http://www.halachabrura.org/parsha-e.htm
Nitzavim
Deciding Halacha by Prophecy or Bat Kol
(based on Birur Halacha, Bava Metzia 59b)
When there was a dispute between R' Eliezer and the Sages (Bava Metzia 59b), and a Bat Kol from heaven declared that the Halacha is always as R' Eliezer says, R' Yehoshua brought the pasuk in our parsha "It is not in heaven", to show that a Bat Kol is not to be relied upon.
On the other hand, in Yevamot (14a) the gemara states that the rule that Halacha is like Bet Hillel against Bet Shammai is based on a Bat Kol.
Tosafot give two explanations to reconcile the sources: A) In the case of R' Eliezer it was clear that the Halacha was like the Sages since they were the majority, and a Bat Kol cannot overcome a clear Halachic rule; whereas in the case of Bet Hillel, it wasn't clear if Halacha is like Bet Hillel since they were the majority, or like Bet Shammai since they were more sagacious, and a Bat Kol is decisive where the halacha is unclear. B) In the case of R' Eliezer the Bat Kol came out only to honor him, after he requested "Let heaven prove me right", and not as a true decision, and therefore it is not to be reckoned with.
R' Nissim Gaon explained that in the case of R' Eliezer the Bat Kol was disregarded since it was worded generally: "Halacha is always like R' Eliezer", which could be construed to mean that Halacha is always like him except here. This can explain why the Bat Kol in the case of Bet Hillel is decisive: because it had exact wording.
The Rambam brings the pasuk "It is not in heaven", to show that a prophet cannot add or omit a mitzvah, nor interpret a mitzvah in a manner not delivered by Moshe Rabbenu. Ma'ase Rekach explains that the Rambam agrees with the first opinion in Tosafot, that where Halacha is unsettled, a Bat Kol or prophecy can be used to settle the halacha, since this does not contradict anything in the Torah. But Pri Chadash holds that in the Rambam's view, in no case can prophecy decide Halacha, and the reason for the rule that halacha is like Bet Hillel isn't because of the Bat Kol, rather because they were the majority, and the Bat Kol came only to honor them.
--- End quote ---
Yes, by majority is how the talmud decides many matters (and some not according to majority!) Its a general rule and as with all general rules there are some exceptions.
But a posek today who has a talmud and generations of halachic/legal precedent before him on matters that are not entirely clearly decided by talmud or associated sources - for such a posek in such a case there is a methodology for arriving at a psak din. It does not involve an opinion poll or a vote tally.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 06, 2012, 12:38:11 AM ---.
.
.
To say you don't respect him is a very serious personal charge - why would you do that? Can't you just leave it at the fact you don't like his views? And why become personally offended?
We have been through this chabad thing already but I'm sorry to say you are stiill living in denial if you really think there are no or very few mesichistim out there. Unfortunately there are many. Still non mesichist chabad does good work and rav bar hayim readily praises some of what they do, so why do you act like he vilifies chabad? ...
--- End quote ---
Again I apologize because I am sure he is a very knowledgeable Rabbi... But I find his method very upsetting. Maybe it motivates you.... But he said things about Breslov Chassidut and other things about those who believe in Kabbalistic teachings which I find hard to swallow.
Maybe some day I will hear your Rabbi and understand what he is saying. But I don't agree that Chabad and CHassidus makes Jews who are not Zionists. I know many who attend Chabad Shabbatons and Yom Tovim who are very Zionistic. I even discussed Rabbi Kahane with my Chabad Rabbi personally the other day and he said he admires Rabbi Kahane. I also asked about Mesichist Chabdniks and my Rabbi said it is a small amount of CHabad shluchim who ruin it for the majority because mainstream Chabad does not teach this.
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