Moshe Feiglin:"nobody says that homosexuals are not good people"

[edu]

Moshe Feiglin, the so-called leader of the Jewish leadership faction in the likud
writes in an article http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/72/articleA7213.html condemning a photo of homosexual soldiers on the IDF official website because this is actively promoting anti-family values, nevertheless adds in his article, "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people".
In his view, like some USA politicians, he might be aiming for some type of public legistlation that discourages public homosexuality, but remains neutral to what people do privately.
In my opinion, if  Moshe Feiglin can't say straight out that people who engage in homosexulality are not good people, because the Torah says it is an abomination and provides a very harsh penalty for such behavior, (see Vayikra/Leviticus 18:22,and 20:13), he does not have the moral standing to represent "Jewish leadership" nor will he have the moral backbone to really fight to obtain the results that the Torah demands on this issue.

[muman613]

While I do not defend the practice of homosexuality I will say that there are some who have this test and are able to overcome their desires. The society today is very confused and sometimes those who get caught up in this perversion are really innocent at their heart. I will not as a practice condemn all homosexuals to eternal hell. I will seek to look for the good in them.

I do support the Torah law that if they are doing the actual act which is prohibited, have had witnesses to this fact, and they are warned against it, yet they continue to violate the law, they should be punished. But I don't condemn Moshe Fieglen for saying that they are not good people. If they are able to understand that their desire is not permitted and can overcome their temptation then they are good people, just people who are greatly tested. They most likely will not procreate and this is a problem, but they do have merit for being able to overcome such a difficult life test. Indeed the world today encourages this degenerate behavior and I agree that public displays of this perversion should be prevented.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Moshe Feiglin, the so-called leader of the Jewish leadership faction in the likud
writes in an article http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/72/articleA7213.html condemning a photo of homosexual soldiers on the IDF official website because this is actively promoting anti-family values, nevertheless adds in his article, "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people".
In his view, like some USA politicians, he might be aiming for some type of public legistlation that discourages public homosexuality, but remains neutral to what people do privately.
In my opinion, if  Moshe Feiglin can't say straight out that people who engage in homosexulality are not good people, because the Torah says it is an abomination and provides a very harsh penalty for such behavior, (see Vayikra/Leviticus 18:22,and 20:13), he does not have the moral standing to represent "Jewish leadership" nor will he have the moral backbone to really fight to obtain the results that the Torah demands on this issue.

I think you misunderstand him.  He is saying he wants to help those who have this kind of urge, not condemn them.   He believes they can be helped by ceasing any activities that violate Leviticus.     Chaim has stated the same position in his videos, hasn't he?    Hasn't Chaim said to the gays in his videos to get help and stop their sinning and return to the Jewish people because we love them and want best for them?

Feiglin condemns promotion of gayness, and you condemn him for it....  I'm very confused here.

Feiglin has good values especially regarding the Jewish family.    He is twisted in the fact that he is still sticking to Likud.   I guess it's like a captain going down with his ship, he wants to see Manhigut Yehudit through to the painful end.

[Dr. Dan]

Kol hakavod, muman.  Well said

While I do not defend the practice of homosexuality I will say that there are some who have this test and are able to overcome their desires. The society today is very confused and sometimes those who get caught up in this perversion are really innocent at their heart. I will not as a practice condemn all homosexuals to eternal hell. I will seek to look for the good in them.

I do support the Torah law that if they are doing the actual act which is prohibited, have had witnesses to this fact, and they are warned against it, yet they continue to violate the law, they should be punished. But I don't condemn Moshe Fieglen for saying that they are not good people. If they are able to understand that their desire is not permitted and can overcome their temptation then they are good people, just people who are greatly tested. They most likely will not procreate and this is a problem, but they do have merit for being able to overcome such a difficult life test. Indeed the world today encourages this degenerate behavior and I agree that public displays of this perversion should be prevented.

[Zelhar]

I agree with his article. It is good he thinks what people do in their private life inside their own house is their own business.

[edu]

I think some of you who responded are making a mistake. While it is true that we are interested in helping sinners, repent and we might have some understanding about what factors brought them to sin, we clearly have to say that those who are doing extremely evil deeds are not "good people". Otherwise our opposition to their actions becomes meaningless.
To put in other words, if you say they are good people, that means their actions must not be that bad. And if their actions are not bad, then you really don't have a right to oppose them.
By clearly stating they are not good people, you avoid this "slippery slope".

[edu]

For those who care about how the Talmud views this issue, I believe I have a proof for my viewpoint, from tractate Pesachim 113b.

[Israel Chai]

I find that to be dangerous rhetoric with no clear meaning. Sure a homosexual can volunteer, sing in retirement homes, and smile alot, but as someone who lies is a liar, and therefore imperfect, a homosexual is exactly that. Nothing short of right is right and what's not right is wrong. If they are a homosexual, they do a bad thing, and even if the only engage in a few homosexual acts, those are a few bad things, and so even if they are only a bit bad as people, they are still bad people if you consider homosexuality to be bad, which G-d does.

Moshe, I do. And if you do not believe that it would be OK if everyone was homosexual, then you should believe as well that these are not good people, though they, and even the worst of people, are capable of doing and occasionally do good things.

[Israel Chai]

For those who care about how the Talmud views this issue, I believe I have a proof for my viewpoint, from tractate Pesachim 113b.

...can you post that here, or link me to an online Talmud, please?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think some of you who responded are making a mistake. While it is true that we are interested in helping sinners, repent and we might have some understanding about what factors brought them to sin, we clearly have to say that those who are doing extremely evil deeds are not "good people". Otherwise our opposition to their actions becomes meaningless. 

But this is not how we respond to those who do not observe sabbath.

He is not saying their actions are not bad.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Kahanewasright good point. Basically let me break it down to you right here. For Jews their are 36 sins with an issur of "Karet". (First page)
http://halakhah.com/pdf/kodoshim/Krithoth.pdf
  One of them is against homosexuality. (for Non-Jews- those who are Bnai Noah this prohibition also falls under the category of sexual perversion). Another one of them is being Mihallel Shabbat. Yett another one is sleeping with a Nidda (a women ritually unclean and who has not gone to the Mikwah, yes including one's own wife). Soo for those who fight this, and you should, please make sure you yourselves do not commit one of the other sins of this magnitude as well.
 On the other hand what makes this even more worse is when not only they do not make repentance for these evil actions and have regrets and shame (as is also written that shame can take away one's sins) but now the culture brag's about it. They want to make "gay parade's" which is not only making the sins, but even boosting about it. In that case it goes from private to public. You do not find anywhere (except with the exception of Arabs glorifying murder) the boosting and "pride" of making sins.

[Dr. Dan]

I think some of you who responded are making a mistake. While it is true that we are interested in helping sinners, repent and we might have some understanding about what factors brought them to sin, we clearly have to say that those who are doing extremely evil deeds are not "good people". Otherwise our opposition to their actions becomes meaningless.
To put in other words, if you say they are good people, that means their actions must not be that bad. And if their actions are not bad, then you really don't have a right to oppose them.
By clearly stating they are not good people, you avoid this "slippery slope".

Everyone sins. Therefore there are no good people.  Is that logical?

[Rubystars]

I think that it's wrong to say that homosexuals are good people because they are defined as a group by doing sinful, evil actions. It's evil to say "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people" because by definition, an active homosexual is doing something evil and therefore as a homosexual he or she is not a good person.

[Israel Chai]

Everyone sins. Therefore there are no good people.  Is that logical?

Bingo. I know well what the many evils I've done are and why they make me a bad person. Some I'm still working out. I see them as a sickness, a plague that I birthed, spread and consumed. I hate them, and I changed out of many of these devilish ways. I still see more, fight them, and look for more ways that my being and actions can conform to the perfection that I see and know I want contained in the Torah. I have no problem admitting my sin, and telling others what it does to the perfect person G-d created that should be me.

If you said I was a good person even though I did the things I have, how would I have any incentive to change? A good person need only to keep doing exactly what he's doing to advance and do better things. It is true that I do some good things and try to be as good as possible, but it doesn't always work out. I know what people that continue to do some of the things I've done are like, and don't want to be like them, but I know what they are, so I try to change.

For all that I'm not cruel. I don't do evil maliciously so that it affects others. Muslims raping girls to further Jihad and let their country-women understand the need for dress code is cruel. So is promoting perverted sexuality and demand others accept, respect and pay for it (or reduce their need to pay taxes because they do it). Not all homosexuals are cruel, but if we do not call their sinful spade a spade, we invite them to be.

[edu]

Kahane-Was_Right-Bt stated:

But this is not how we respond to those who do not observe sabbath.

There is a difference.
Ignorance and bad upbringing are excuses that are sometimes accepted by halacha to lessen the severity of  sabbath violation.
For Homosexuality, which is on the level of the prohibition of murder in halacha, even Gentiles are prohibited to do it and Rambam in Mishna Torah does not allow them the excuse "that I was ignorant of the law".

[edu]

reply to Dr Dan who said

Everyone sins. Therefore there are no good people.  Is that logical?

Not every sin is on the same level. Good people usually do good or neutral deeds and only occasionally slip up with a sin and even then they usually show remorse afterwards and there are certain red lines that they will never cross, even if they do sin.

Male Homosexuality is such a red line.
Halacha states, that if a person has to violate the sabbath to save his life, he must violate the sabbath. However, if he is told to commit what halacha views as murder, or if he is told to commit male homosexuality to save his life, he must in both of the last 2 cases, give up his life, rather than commit the sin.

[muman613]

I think that there is a difference between the sin and the sinner. In this case there can be people who claim to have a sexual attraction to the same sex. If this attraction is allowed to affect a persons behavior and it leads to the prohibited act then it is a sin. But the attraction alone is not the sin, it is the act.

It is possible that people who have this attraction are 'good people' since they recognize their problem and can control themselves and not sin. This is what I think it means that all those who identify as homosexual are not 'bad people'.

[Rubystars]

I think that there is a difference between the sin and the sinner. In this case there can be people who claim to have a sexual attraction to the same sex. If this attraction is allowed to affect a persons behavior and it leads to the prohibited act then it is a sin. But the attraction alone is not the sin, it is the act.

It is possible that people who have this attraction are 'good people' since they recognize their problem and can control themselves and not sin. This is what I think it means that all those who identify as homosexual are not 'bad people'.

I can agree with this much but there is a trap in here in that you have to make sure that you don't begin to go soft on people who are active homosexuals. They are actively destroying not just their own lives but also bringing God's judgment on the society in which they happen to live.

[Israel Chai]

I think that there is a difference between the sin and the sinner.

Correct you are, in certain examples. A crackhead is so consumed in his sin, his life and being are associated with it, and he will love others that share in it and defend it. Same with homos. This is why it is such a grievous sin, because it dehumanizes him, becomes his identity, and radicalizes him to make other like this, for what he believes to be his benefit.

Even a thief, do it and every time you walk into a store you think about it and feel an urge, though the aforementioned effects are not as strong if you just do it once. Lie, and sometimes you'll start doing it without even thinking, like the truth doesn't matter to you anymore. Have you ever seen a murder, who did so in cold blood's eyes? The don't have the same connection to other people as they had before, a step, as the rest of these, to moral insanity.

Do these things and many more and you are a bad person. I believe that it can be changed and perfection achieved, and regardless of what others say has complete improbability, it helps to try. But others must condemn it so you can, saying that they are bad people makes it easy for them to be good.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think that it's wrong to say that homosexuals are good people because they are defined as a group by doing sinful, evil actions. It's evil to say "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people" because by definition, an active homosexual is doing something evil and therefore as a homosexual he or she is not a good person.

But I think that feiglin is defining "homosexual" by the desire not by the actions of the individual person.  After all, that is what the term means - a same gender desire.

[Rubystars]

But I think that feiglin is defining "homosexual" by the desire not by the actions of the individual person.  After all, that is what the term means - a same gender desire.

The thing is having a mental disorder still doesn't make someone good or bad. It just is an affliction. It's like saying "Nobody can say that people with influenza are not good people". It doesn't make a lot of sense in that context either.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This post is a little bit funny to me...

reply to Dr Dan who saidNot every sin is on the same level. Good people usually do good or neutral deeds and only occasionally slip up with a sin and even then they usually show remorse afterwards and there are certain red lines that they will never cross, even if they do sin.

Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person?  I say yes.  I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no.  But what do you say?  Usually shabbat violators do not show remorse of any kind.  Many don't even think its wrong or problematic.  Do you think of them as "evil" ?

Male Homosexuality is such a red line.
Halacha states, that if a person has to violate the sabbath to save his life, he must violate the sabbath. However, if he is told to commit what halacha views as murder, or if he is told to commit male homosexuality to save his life, he must in both of the last 2 cases, give up his life, rather than commit the sin.

There are many MANY people out there who are worshipping idols according to basic definitions of halacha.   I don't believe all those people are evil.  Most of them don't even realize what they are doing, or they are just used to it or have desire for it, and are definitely not intending to affront to God in following whatever nonJewish religion they are doing.  (Idol worship is the second of 3 types of sins that fall into the category where you cannot do it to save your life if faced with a choice between certain death and compelled sin, as you mentioned regarding homosexual relations which fall into the forbidden relations category).   I think they are in a similar situation to any gay who slips up or even who does his sin due to his desires which overcame him but not maliciously.

I think you arbitrarily draw red lines.

[Israel Chai]

This post is a little bit funny to me...

Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person?  I say yes.  I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no.  But what do you say?  Usually shabbat violators do not show remorse of any kind.  Many don't even think its wrong or problematic.  Do you think of them as "evil" ?

There are many MANY people out there who are worshipping idols according to basic definitions of halacha.   I don't believe all those people are evil.  Most of them don't even realize what they are doing, or they are just used to it or have desire for it, and are definitely not intending to affront to G-d in following whatever nonJewish religion they are doing.  (Idol worship is the second of 3 types of sins that fall into the category where you cannot do it to save your life if faced with a choice between certain death and compelled sin, as you mentioned regarding homosexual relations which fall into the forbidden relations category).   I think they are in a similar situation to any gay who slips up or even who does his sin due to his desires which overcame him but not maliciously.

I think you arbitrarily draw red lines.

I'm not the one who drew them. Sure, in their hearts they can be the most loving, but if someone who was good and didn't know what they were doing was bad and they stayed with them they'll probably start doing it too. It's like saying a low-effect contagious disease doesn't make a person sick, because people with AIDS are sick.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm not the one who drew them. Sure, in their hearts they can be the most loving, but if someone who was good and didn't know what they were doing was bad and they stayed with them they'll probably start doing it too. It's like saying a low-effect contagious disease doesn't make a person sick, because people with AIDS are sick.

My comment was in response to edu.  I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Dr. Dan]

I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand.  Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious.  There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.

Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example.  Like being a light to others.  And not just to Jews, but also gentles.  We are representatives of our people. 

This post is a little bit funny to me...

Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person?  I say yes.  I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no.  But what do you say?  Usually shabbat violators do not show remorse of any kind.  Many don't even think its wrong or problematic.  Do you think of them as "evil" ?

There are many MANY people out there who are worshipping idols according to basic definitions of halacha.   I don't believe all those people are evil.  Most of them don't even realize what they are doing, or they are just used to it or have desire for it, and are definitely not intending to affront to G-d in following whatever nonJewish religion they are doing.  (Idol worship is the second of 3 types of sins that fall into the category where you cannot do it to save your life if faced with a choice between certain death and compelled sin, as you mentioned regarding homosexual relations which fall into the forbidden relations category).   I think they are in a similar situation to any gay who slips up or even who does his sin due to his desires which overcame him but not maliciously.

I think you arbitrarily draw red lines.