Moshe Feiglin:"nobody says that homosexuals are not good people"

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

This post is a little bit funny to me...

Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person?  I say yes.  I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no. 

 I know of at least 2 who publicly state otherwise.  I remeber one of them saying (and this was in shul) about people praising someone who passed away yett did not keep Mitzwoth particularly Shabbat.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand.  Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious.  There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.

Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example.  Like being a light to others.  And not just to Jews, but also gentles.  We are representatives of our people.

 Yes and no. Its true that we personally cannot use force today for example to tie your family members up on Shabbat to make sure they aren't violating it. BUT about using fear is a different story. Not that we want people to be scared etc. but sometimes the knowledge of fear itself is also a big motivator for people. Also a real Jewish government can and did use "fear" and "intimidation" if you will to force G-D's laws upon people. For example check the story with Hezekia the King saying that any ignoramus would in effect be killed. Because of his decree every child knew all the laws etc. (This is also brought down in Rabbi Kahane's book "The Jewish idea" as well). 

[Dr. Dan]

Yes and no. Its true that we personally cannot use force today for example to tie your family members up on Shabbat to make sure they aren't violating it. BUT about using fear is a different story. Not that we want people to be scared etc. but sometimes the knowledge of fear itself is also a big motivator for people. Also a real Jewish government can and did use "fear" and "intimidation" if you will to force G-D's laws upon people. For example check the story with Hezekia the King saying that any ignoramus would in effect be killed. Because of his decree every child knew all the laws etc. (This is also brought down in Rabbi Kahane's book "The Jewish idea" as well).

For certain things, I understand there might need a fear tactic.  But for a lot of other things, leading by example or encouraging it is better.  But I guess it depends on where and what situation and urgency

[Israel Chai]

I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand.  Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious.  There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.

Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example.  Like being a light to others.  And not just to Jews, but also gentles.  We are representatives of our people.

So what is your opinion of Lubavitch? Also, do you believe being a light unto others over-rides telling your kids that's it's sinful and gives you no place in the world to come? While I don't suppose anyone intends to go homo hunting so they can do a drive-by condemnation, if someone says "homosexuals" (people that do/ desire this one action) and "good people" (" do things that are good), they are distorting the point to begin with. Good people is meaningless, that part of them is very bad. It doesn't average out in heaven and you go for the high score.

"One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 "wolves" inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

The Jewish way of saying this I think is that your body is a temple, and your actions determine who it is dedicated to. Sure, you're not going to warn everyone that your mother once lied when she was a little girl, but that's the difference between spilling the candles and building a big fire filled idol in comparison. Sure you're a great person no matter what, G-d's really good at making those, but the point is that when you do the things that it says are bad, you become part bad, and then you are not really good, because you're a little bad so if you say that they're good people, it's using this averaging phenomenon to say that them and their ways should still be socially acceptable, which gives it encouragement to spread. If you say it's bad what they do but many certainly have the strength to overcome it that makes sense, or while they weren't being sinful and abominable people in their civil union, these men were being good people at the children's hospital. It was a tragedy when a generous and respected man in the community turned out to be a homosexual, because that and every other thing that Torah says is wrong creates more of that in others. We want the good anyone in the world can do be done, but we want the bad to stop being done, so its nice and pretty and so very tolerant to talk about how gay people are good, but that's done to avoid talking about how they are bad, and because it's done it's harder for them to change and easier for others to become that way.

[muman613]

So what is your opinion of Lubavitch? Also, do you believe being a light unto others over-rides telling your kids that's it's sinful and gives you no place in the world to come? While I don't suppose anyone intends to go homo hunting so they can do a drive-by condemnation, if someone says "homosexuals" (people that do/ desire this one action) and "good people" (" do things that are good), they are distorting the point to begin with. Good people is meaningless, that part of them is very bad. It doesn't average out in heaven and you go for the high score.

"One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 "wolves" inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

The Jewish way of saying this I think is that your body is a temple, and your actions determine who it is dedicated to. Sure, you're not going to warn everyone that your mother once lied when she was a little girl, but that's the difference between spilling the candles and building a big fire filled idol in comparison. Sure you're a great person no matter what, G-d's really good at making those, but the point is that when you do the things that it says are bad, you become part bad, and then you are not really good, because you're a little bad so if you say that they're good people, it's using this averaging phenomenon to say that them and their ways should still be socially acceptable, which gives it encouragement to spread. If you say it's bad what they do but many certainly have the strength to overcome it that makes sense, or while they weren't being sinful and abominable people in their civil union, these men were being good people at the children's hospital. It was a tragedy when a generous and respected man in the community turned out to be a homosexual, because that and every other thing that Torah says is wrong creates more of that in others. We want the good anyone in the world can do be done, but we want the bad to stop being done, so its nice and pretty and so very tolerant to talk about how gay people are good, but that's done to avoid talking about how they are bad, and because it's done it's harder for them to change and easier for others to become that way.

You realize that Chassidism is greater than Lubavitch {Lubavitch is just one branch of Chassidic Judaism}...

My opinion of Lubavitch is AWESOME!

PS: Saul Kaye has a song on his Jewish Blues Vol II called "Two Wolves"...

http://www.saulkaye.com/go/lyrics?id=686138

Two Wolves

There are two wolves
Inside of me
One Tries to Tempt me
But the other one Believes
There are Two Wolves
Inside of Me
So be careful now
Cuz you never know which one you’ll meet

Meet the good wolf, yetzer ha tov
He’s faithful and obeys
You know he’s always so well behaved
And you can bet your last dollar
That he will never stray

Sometimes I wake up
So hungry
I can’t eat
I can’t sleep
You know the bad wolf
Kept me up all night
Now my eyes are red an glazed
In the morning light

There are two wolves
Inside of me
One Tries to Tempt me
But the other one Believes
There are Two Wolves
Inside of Me
So be careful now
Cuz I’m not benoni

Lately the bad wolf’s
Been on a bend
Scaring my family and friends
You know he feeds
On their needs
And he won’t be satisfied
Until everybody bleeds

There are two wolves
Inside of me
One Tries to Tempt me
But the other one Believes
There are Two Wolves
Inside of Me
So be careful now
Cuz I’m not benoni

What you say is the difference between the Sinner and the Sin. If we have the desire to do right we will surely avoid doing wrong. But we should rebuke all who do wrong, not just those who do sin which are against our own idea of right and wrong. As we point out over and over again, the TORAH spends a great deal of time CONDEMNING those who violate the Shabbat.... There is only TWO mentions in the entire Tanakh about the sin of male-on-male homosexual sex... Both have the same punishment. I think that Hashem is MUCH MORE upset at the Jews who violate Shabbat than they are at the homosexuals.

[muman613]

Saul Kayes song addresses the Benoni, a person who is in between a tzadik {righteous man} and a Rasha {sinner}...


http://www.meaningfullife.com/currentevents/israel/The_Wilderness_and_the_Torah.php

The question can be further broadened. Why was it necessary for the Jewish people to wander 40 years before entering the Promised Land? Was 210 years of hard labor in Egypt not enough suffering? Why liberate them from Egypt only to put them through another 40 oppressive years?!

One of the most powerful messages that ever touched me is the teaching of the Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, in his Tanya. He explains that the purpose of life on Earth in not for the tzaddik (righteous person), who does not have an evil inclination and therefore does not face the true struggles of life. The purpose of creation is the average man (the ‘benoni’) who faces a constant struggle between good and evil.

Judaism does not tell us that life is easy and that faith is bliss. On the contrary. We were placed in a wilderness and life is a battle. And it is precisely this battle that G-d intended us to face. Therefore, do not be disturbed or demoralized by your challenges, by your inconsistencies and by your weaknesses. Do not be shaken when you do not live up to your highest aspirations, and often do not actualize or maintain your inspiration. Do not be discouraged – because this struggle is the fundamental purpose of all of existence.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361887/jewish/Glossary.htm

http://www.theyeshiva.net/Article/View/5/The-Id-the-Yid-and-the-Super-Ego

In the Tanya, Rabbi Schneur Zalman placed as his ideal human being a new spiritual model whom he called "the Benoni," or "the possible man." The Benoni is a man whose inner character often resembles that of the Rasha, consisting of the good/evil dichotomy that is the original natural state of every human. But the Benoni's behavior is as flawless as the Tzaddik's.

Rabbi Schneur Zalman taught that there is no need, nor is it even a possibility for most people, to have all of their three "arks" turned into pure gold. It is not tragic if our middle "ark" forever remains torn and dichotomized. Yet, notwithstanding this eternal dichotomy, our behavior, our active thoughts, words and deeds, ought always to reflect our innate G-dliness and spirituality. G-d did not desire holy people doing holy things; He desired unhely people doing holy things (5).

benoni   (lit., "intermediate man"): classically, an individual whose merits are equally balanced between good and evil; according to *Chassidus, an individual whose spiritual labors have brought him to a level at which he never sins in thought, word or deed, despite his still-active Evil Inclination; see Tanya, ch. 12

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

For certain things, I understand there might need a fear tactic.  But for a lot of other things, leading by example or encouraging it is better.  But I guess it depends on where and what situation and urgency

 Your correct. I agree.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Saul Kayes song addresses the Benoni, a person who is in between a tzadik {righteous man} and a Rasha {sinner}...


http://www.meaningfullife.com/currentevents/israel/The_Wilderness_and_the_Torah.php

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361887/jewish/Glossary.htm

http://www.theyeshiva.net/Article/View/5/The-Id-the-Yid-and-the-Super-Ego

I love this! 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand.  Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious.  There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.

Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example.  Like being a light to others.  And not just to Jews, but also gentles.  We are representatives of our people.

This is an old fight the chassidim have with chabad.  Its amazing to me that he calls outreach to OTHER jews as prosletyzing.  That's over the line.  Chassidim, particularly satmar have always been against chabbad's kiruv efforts, and of course they always try to use some flimsy religious justification for their politics. 
They say it's "not a mitzvah" ok lot's of things are not a mitzvah you can list out in a list of specific requirements but we still do them.  And many things fall under categories of mitzvot.  If we're not supposed to do outreach, what were the neviim doing telling Jews to stop idol worship?  Why were the levites supposed to teach Torah? For fun?  Or was it to get Jews on the same page regarding mitzvah observance and behavior?   I believe the anti kiruv "be a shining light example and God will make it all happen for you" approach is a distortion fostered by the exile mentality.

If this chassid really thinks we CANNOT encourage our ways to other Jews, ask why so many chassidim got frazzled over Rav Moshe's milk psak.   Let those other Jews drink whatever kosher milk they want and just be a "light" unto them by you drinking cholov yisrael.   And so so many other examples like that. 
They only really use the argument of not influencing others when they want to combat the work chabad does.   But they themselves always try to influence other Jews.

All rabbis try to influence Jews to keep mitzvot!
Please cite eruvin 9a and ask the chassid about the Rashi there which explains how the great tanna/amora "Rav" 'found a valley and enclosed it within a fence' in the Talmud's words, means according to Rashi that the unlearned babylonian Jews took Torah and commandments lightly and w disdain, but Rav fixed this situation.
Rabbi wein writes that Rav chose to settle in Sura and head the yeshiva there precisely because Sura contained many ignorant and at-risk-of-assimilating Jews in order to correct this.  (Makkos 24a comment by Rav and iggereth of sherira gaon attest to the low stature of communities in Sura at that time).
When Rav founded yarchei kallah, it was quite obviously for all the farming and working Jews who don't normally study in yeshiva to come and learn torah - to influence and reach out to them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And one more thing, there are certain things not required by halacha but a mensch still does it anyway.  I don't think I need to elaborate furthe w examples we all know.

[muman613]

One thing is for sure.... Chabad is very much into kiruv, or outreach, to Jews of all stripes. My good experience with Chabad over more than 10 years allowed me to witness the great good which they do. And don't tell me these Jews don't become zionistic and supportive of the Jewish state. All Chabad Rabbis I know have been to, and encourage all who attend, to go to Israel and to eventually move there.

Indeed the Chabad Rabbi is well known for sending out mitzvah mobiles which would encourage Jews, males would be encouraged to Don Tefillin with a blessing and the women would be encouraged to light Shabbat candles and given a box of candles. It is great to assist in the bringing together Jews in all the four corners of the earth. One of my Chabad Rabbis who has been training here in Northern California for about 4 years is now embarking to Wisconsin, of all places.

I realize there is question whether Jews should live in Chutz L'Aretz... But there is certainly some merit for keeping Jews Jewish wherever they may find themselves. And I know from my experience out in the Jewish Boonies that all Chabad Rabbis I know support the Zionist enterprise.

Example Mitzvah Mobile:





One more:

[Dr. Dan]

I love the lubavetchers.

Ones Jewish kids should know right from for a Jew.  But they should also understand that non Jew isn't a worse person than him because he's not required to follow kashrut rules.  Kids should also know that it is better not to judge others when possible and lead by example of how good it is to do things when it is done right.  Maybe even encourage others if he has to.  Also talking about Gd has judge and what He can do when He judges is important, but better to phrase it in a third person such as, "Gd is the ultimate judge and will determine if someone did his best to live by mitzvot."


As for homosexuality, we teach our kids that is wrong and not to judge others for it and that Gd is judge and that He judges souls measure for measure. 

Now think about this. You're about to get in a heated debate with a homosexual and you approach it like this.  I think you are more likely to affect him with truth than if you were to confront him with a pointed finger.  Nobody likes it when you point a finger at them and tell them that they are going to everlasting hellfire.

So what is your opinion of Lubavitch? Also, do you believe being a light unto others over-rides telling your kids that's it's sinful and gives you no place in the world to come? While I don't suppose anyone intends to go homo hunting so they can do a drive-by condemnation,  : someone says "homosexuals" (people that do/ desire this one action) and "good people" (" do things that are good), they are distorting the point to begin with. Good people is meaningless, that part of them is very bad. It doesn't average out in heaven and you go for the high score.

"One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 "wolves" inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

The Jewish way of saying this I think is that your body is a temple, and your actions determine who it is dedicated to. Sure, you're not going to warn everyone that your mother once lied when she was a little girl, but that's the difference between spilling the candles and building a big fire filled idol in comparison. Sure you're a great person no matter what, G-d's really good at making those, but the point is that when you do the things that it says are bad, you become part bad, and then you are not really good, because you're a little bad so if you say that they're good people, it's using this averaging phenomenon to say that them and their ways should still be socially acceptable, which gives it encouragement to spread. If you say it's bad what they do but many certainly have the strength to overcome it that makes sense, or while they weren't being sinful and abominable people in their civil union, these men were being good people at the children's hospital. It was a tragedy when a generous and respected man in the community turned out to be a homosexual, because that and every other thing that Torah says is wrong creates more of that in others. We want the good anyone in the world can do be done, but we want the bad to stop being done, so its nice and pretty and so very tolerant to talk about how gay people are good, but that's done to avoid talking about how they are bad, and because it's done it's harder for them to change and easier for others to become that way.

[Dr. Dan]

Not quoting from this man, but stands with the lubovitch sect and their outreach.  He even feels schneerson and kahane were right.

This is an old fight the chassidim have with chabad.  Its amazing to me that he calls outreach to OTHER jews as prosletyzing.  That's over the line.  Chassidim, particularly satmar have always been against chabbad's kiruv efforts, and of course they always try to use some flimsy religious justification for their politics. 
They say it's "not a mitzvah" ok lot's of things are not a mitzvah you can list out in a list of specific requirements but we still do them.  And many things fall under categories of mitzvot.  If we're not supposed to do outreach, what were the neviim doing telling Jews to stop idol worship?  Why were the levites supposed to teach Torah? For fun?  Or was it to get Jews on the same page regarding mitzvah observance and behavior?   I believe the anti kiruv "be a shining light example and G-d will make it all happen for you" approach is a distortion fostered by the exile mentality.

If this chassid really thinks we CANNOT encourage our ways to other Jews, ask why so many chassidim got frazzled over Rav Moshe's milk psak.   Let those other Jews drink whatever kosher milk they want and just be a "light" unto them by you drinking cholov yisrael.   And so so many other examples like that. 
They only really use the argument of not influencing others when they want to combat the work chabad does.   But they themselves always try to influence other Jews.

All rabbis try to influence Jews to keep mitzvot!
Please cite eruvin 9a and ask the chassid about the Rashi there which explains how the great tanna/amora "Rav" 'found a valley and enclosed it within a fence' in the Talmud's words, means according to Rashi that the unlearned babylonian Jews took Torah and commandments lightly and w disdain, but Rav fixed this situation.
Rabbi wein writes that Rav chose to settle in Sura and head the yeshiva there precisely because Sura contained many ignorant and at-risk-of-assimilating Jews in order to correct this.  (Makkos 24a comment by Rav and iggereth of sherira gaon attest to the low stature of communities in Sura at that time).
When Rav founded yarchei kallah, it was quite obviously for all the farming and working Jews who don't normally study in yeshiva to come and learn torah - to influence and reach out to them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I know of at least 2 who publicly state otherwise.  I remeber one of them saying (and this was in shul) about people praising someone who passed away yett did not keep Mitzwoth particularly Shabbat.

That doesn't even make sense.   We are supposed to praise the good qualities of loved ones when they die.   

No?