Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
ONE MILLION Haredim planning to march against a Torah command!
Sveta:
Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl). I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
But if this is the life they choose that's their thing. I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve. I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):
--- Quote ---"These are the things for which a person enjoys the dividends in this world while the principal remains for the person to enjoy in the world to come. They are: honoring parents, loving deeds of kindness, and making peace between one person and another, but the study of the Torah is equal to them all"(Talmud Shabbat 127a)
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: IsraeliHeart on July 17, 2012, 03:20:55 AM ---Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl).
--- End quote ---
But in the past, they didn't have a whole society of people in full-time kollel learning. That is simply not reality. Only the most elite learners and exceptional tzaddikim/scholars stayed in yeshiva, and only the best of the best out of that crop STAYED in yeshiva to become a rav/scholar (an actual job!) while the others went to work because they had to support themselves and a family. There was no mass kollel system in the past.
Ever hear of the Torah Temimah? It was written by Rabbi Baruch HaLevy Epstein. He was the star student of the Volozhin yeshiva run by his uncle, the Netziv. To his regret, as he writes throughout his memoirs, he had to leave yeshiva in order to become a businessman, so that he could provide for his family. He maintained his studies in his free time, and put together Torah Temima out of a lifetime of Torah study. He is one of the greatest Jewish scholars. And if he didn't remain in volozhin, can you imagine how many lesser scholars who were fellow students of his most certainly also went to work themselves? Not everyone is destined to become a Bes HaLevy or a Netziv, and certainly no one expects hundreds of thousands to do so while collecting donations.
--- Quote --- I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
--- End quote ---
That also was not the case traditionally. Men were expected to provide for their families. Women were expected to raise children, not to hire indonesians or singaporians to do it while working since the man refuses to get a job. Anyway, I don't have a problem with women working too. But parents have to raise their own kids.
--- Quote ---But if this is the life they choose that's their thing.
--- End quote ---
They choose it less as time goes on because financial circumstances are forcing them to adapt to the impossibility of sustaining a system that is not sustainable. The govt is trying to force immediate changes on them externally and that is wrong. If they really cared about haredim, they would simply try to help ease the actual changes happening organically and remove restrictions from these Jews when they branch out to try different things. Obviously the govt doesn't care about haredim or any Jews.
--- Quote --- I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve. I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):
--- End quote ---
Whatever the merit of these points, it doesn't change the historical reality that a mass kollel society is a modern-day innovation and it exists on an unprecedented scale that none of the generations past could have ever imagined, and secondly, that such a system is not sustainable economically. They have no choice but to beg for handouts from evil people in the israeli govt because otherwise that system cannot persist. And I really don't care that the govt has to pay the yeshivas, I'm speaking from the point of view of haredim - To be dependent on handouts (especially from evil people) is undignified and damaging to haredi men and haredi society.
Sveta:
Haredim in Israel don't live that well. They could leave their communities, they could send their kids to universities to become lawyers and doctors and start buying bigger homes and more luxury. The choice is their but they want nothing of that. All they want is to live in their own communities and all they want is for us to leave them alone. Go into their neighborhood immorally and they're yell or throw stones until you leave. They really would rather people leave them alone. And they would rather be dragged to prison than serve in the IDF.
Personally, I choose to leave them alone. I don't mind if my money goes to assist a young religious man attend Yeshiva as long as he's honest in doing so. Just like in the future if/when I have a son and I can't afford any of the expensive religious schools for him in the US, maybe I can get some assistance (religious grants) for him to get a religious education. Although I would prefer to be able to afford it myself. Just an example.
Chaim Ben Pesach:
בס''ד
The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.
The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.
The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".
The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.
The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.
The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".
If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.
Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.
Dr. Dan:
So if Haredim "want to do their thing and we should leave them alone." Then Secularist leftist should be able to do "their own thing and be left alone."
Can you solve that problem?
--- Quote from: IsraeliHeart on July 17, 2012, 03:20:55 AM ---Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl). I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
But if this is the life they choose that's their thing. I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve. I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):
--- End quote ---
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