ONE MILLION Haredim planning to march against a Torah command!

[Yerusha]

"Beware lest you be found fighting against the L-rd!".

The Rambam states that defending the borders of Eretz Yisrael against invasion comes under the category of a Milchemes Mitzva -  an Obligatory War - "wherein EVERYONE goes out to battle, even a bridegroom from out of his nuptial chamber....!"

And if ever there was a Milchemes Mitzva today, it is defending the borders of the State of Israel, the G-d-given home of 6 million Jews.

The fact is that those Haredim who don't study Torah full-time, which is most of them, would make disciplined, brave and ruthless soldiers, and the fact that they are being so studiously forbidden by the 'Gedolim' to participate in the mitzvah of Milchemes Mitzvah, and thereby emboldening the deadly surrounding Ishmaelitic foes, makes one wonder if there are forces at work, consciously or unconsciously, to bring down the State of Israel and end the Zionist enterprise, even if it means everyone perishing or a Third Exile: it goes that deep!

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/132849/Porush-Confirms-Million-Man-Rally-in-the-Works-.html

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/132884/Maran-Rav-Kanievsky-on-Chareidi-Conscription.html

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

This comment is hilarious:

This is a great idea! I totally think the chareidi tzibur should have a million man rally! Of course, as we all know, we can’t have the chareidi avreichim go to the rally. Why can’t they go, you ask? Well, we all know that the only thing keeping the Jewish people and the country safe is the fact that these avreichim are sitting and learning full time. We wouldn’t want everyone to be destroyed while all the avreichim are out of the basei midrashim at the rally. We certainly wouldn’t want to empty out the basei midrashim (that would be a shmad). Hmmm… what are we to do?

Don’t fear – I have a perfect solution! We’ll have all the avreichim stay back and learn, b/c that’s what will really save us from this shmad anyway – not the silly rally. Instead, we’ll ask the non-chareidi tzibur to attend the rally in place of the avreichim. Surely the non-religious and dati leumi will be happy to attend the rally for us! Whew, disaster averted!

[edu]

Yerusha, you are probably not aware, that the IDF makes every soldier take an oath or at least an affirmation, that their commitment to the State overrides their commitment to Torah.
I also know of various anti-religious decrees that the army currently imposes on its soldiers.
The army currently is not being used just only to fight.
It is being used to advance phoney peace deals and to evict Jews from their homes.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Yerusha, you are probably not aware, that the IDF makes every soldier take an oath or at least an affirmation, that their commitment to the State overrides their commitment to Torah.
I also know of various anti-religious decrees that the army currently imposes on its soldiers.
The army currently is not being used just only to fight.
It is being used to advance phoney peace deals and to evict Jews from their homes.

2- True
1- Did not hear of this and I would like to see the source and know exactly where you got that from. Their are many Dati-Leumi and I would imagine an outrage. Anyone can just refuse that statement and only follow and do what is beneficial for the Jewish people.

[Yerusha]

Any idea when and where this photo of Rabbi Kahane was taken?

Was he on miluim?

[muman613]

It looks like that picture is posted on Baruch Cohens blog... Very interesting that I just listened to Baruch Cohen talking with Shifra Hoffman on Tamar Yonahs radio show...

http://attorneysdefendingisrael.blogspot.com/2010/12/rabbi-meir-kahane-ztl.html

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yerusha, you are probably not aware, that the IDF makes every soldier take an oath or at least an affirmation, that their commitment to the State overrides their commitment to Torah. 

. Never heard of this.  I don't believe that is the case.  Source?

I also know of various anti-religious decrees that the army currently imposes on its soldiers.
The army currently is not being used just only to fight.
It is being used to advance phoney peace deals and to evict Jews from their homes.

That's not the point of this discussion however.  They are opposed to army service IN PRINCIPLE.  Even if rav eliashiv was prime minister.

[Lisa]

I don't understand why any religious Jews would be opposed to army service.  What if they had their own male only units?  Is it because they don't want to throw Jews out of their homes?  Or would they still be opposed even in a Torah true, right wing Israel? 

Also, if King David went out and fought Israel's enemies, why can't these Haredim? 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

That's not the point of this discussion however.  They are opposed to army service IN PRINCIPLE.  Even if rav eliashiv was prime minister.

 What principle? They simply could have gotten away with it for all this time. funny how some of them are screaming "Shmad" and other such terms, yett did not say s@#% when it came to Gush Katif.
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't understand why any religious Jews would be opposed to army service.  What if they had their own male only units?  Is it because they don't want to throw Jews out of their homes?  Or would they still be opposed even in a Torah true, right wing Israel?   

No, it's not because of the army throwing Jews out of their homes.   It is only rare ideological purists like me who feel this way about the army.    Most of the people who feel that way and refuse to serve on account of the army throwing Jews out of their homes and being an arab loving disgrace, are DATI LEUMI not haredim.  haredim are already exempt so this doesn't even come up for them.
 
The haredi society has been convinced (you might call it brainwashed) that serving in an army is not acceptable activity for a young man.    Only full time kollel learning is acceptable.      Similarly, employment is viewed with disdain.    People getting jobs instead of kollel are viewed as lower beings and they are socially outcast.     This is how it is in haredi communities in Israel.     Those who attribute other reasons to their opposition to army service are liars.      The Nahal Haredi unit was formed specifically for haredim who cannot sit and learn but want to do their service so that they can then (legally) get jobs.    That unit is up to the strictest haredi standards as set out by rebbeim.  Many haredi rabbis spoke out against even this unit, and many haredim attacked the one prominent rav who was for it.   (They even firebombed his car -  some respect they have for gedolim).

Also, if King David went out and fought Israel's enemies, why can't these Haredim?

Their answer to that question?     'It was different then.   Now Jewish men must learn.   That will bring moshiach.'     That is what they think.       I certainly do not agree with that point of view.
And anyone who tries to claim otherwise simply does not understand haredim or is simply lying.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

1) What if they had their own male only units? 

2) Also, if King David went out and fought Israel's enemies, why can't these Haredim?

 Their already are. Rav Kahane ZTL HYD also proposed this as well. See his essay in this book (I know its here, but don't know which 1 exactly but remember reading it in this volume, parts of the articles are available here.
 http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Words-Selected-1960-1990-1988-1989/dp/1463689225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341966649&sr=8-1&keywords=Meir+kahane+6

 2) apparently they know better.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

No, it's not because of the army throwing Jews out of their homes.   It is only rare ideological purists like me who feel this way about the army.    Most of the people who feel that way and refuse to serve on account of the army throwing Jews out of their homes and being an arab loving disgrace, are DATI LEUMI not haredim. 

The haredi society has been convinced (you might call it brainwashed) that serving in an army is not acceptable activity for a young man.    Only full time kollel learning is acceptable.      Similarly, employment is viewed with disdain.    People getting jobs instead of kollel are viewed as lower beings and they are socially outcast.     This is how it is in haredi communities in Israel.     Those who attribute other reasons to their opposition to army service are liars.      The Nahal Haredi unit was formed specifically for haredim who cannot sit and learn but want to do their service so that they can then (legally) get jobs.    That unit is up to the strictest haredi standards as set out by rebbeim.  Many haredi rabbis spoke out against even this unit, and many haredim attacked the one prominent rav who was for it.   (They even firebombed his car -  some respect they have for gedolim).

Their answer to that question?     'It was different then.   Now Jewish men must learn.   That will bring moshiach.'     That is what they think.       I certainly do not agree with that point of view.
And anyone who tries to claim otherwise simply does not understand haredim or is simply lying.

 True and agreed. I would also like to add that many of them view it as if they are living in the Galut, for example in Czarist Russia. It is often said by them that "we are in galut" by those living in the center of JERUSHALAYIM of all places. Apparently that is where their minds are.
 I know and heard of the incident of Rav Steinman who supported Nahal Haredi (which has many very fine warriors, many of them Dati-Leumi as well). Apparently their excuse of "the Gedolim say ______" does not stand especially where one of the "Gedolim" said opposite of what they preached, but then we are told he is not a "Gadol". Go figure.  ( If you or someone has an article from he news or other place on this I would appreciate it)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Lisa (and those interested) its page 143 from the link I posted earlier

 Search inside the book here
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Words-Selected-1960-1990-1988-1989/dp/1463689225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341966649&sr=8-1&keywords=Meir+kahane+6

[Lisa]

I find it odd that these Haredim would firebomb the car of one of their rabbis with whom they have a difference of opinion, yet they refuse to fight againt moosie/Arab terrorists who want to destroy Israel.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I find it odd that these Haredim would firebomb the car of one of their rabbis with whom they have a difference of opinion, yet they refuse to fight againt moosie/Arab terrorists who want to destroy Israel.

Those types who would do that are all politics and very little religion.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I find it odd that these Haredim would firebomb the car of one of their rabbis with whom they have a difference of opinion, yet they refuse to fight againt moosie/Arab terrorists who want to destroy Israel.

 I believe it was NK (I could be wrong, but seems like them). These fools would and did stand with the arab enemy.
 And with all their learning that they claim, they are complete fools and idiots. Low IQ as well.

[Lisa]

Those types who would do that are all politics and very little religion.

I don't understand.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't understand.

They dress in very religious garb but their real life passion is politics which they try to convince themselves and others is religion, when it isn't.   (ie they pass off their clearly political views, which they protest, riot, lobby for, as if they are required by Judaism and they are expressing their Jewish religion by upholding them.   When in reality, they are merely a political activist group and often their views go against Judaism or at very least, conflicting views exist and are valid according to any objective opinion).

[edu]

This is the oath of allegiance in Hebrew that all soldiers must take
 

הנני נשבע(ת) ומתחייב(ת) בהן צדקי לשמור אמונים למדינת ישראל לחוקיה ולשלטונותיה המוסמכים, לקבל על עצמי ללא תנאי וללא סייג עול משמעתו של צבא הגנה לישראל, לציית לכל הפקודות וההוראות הניתנות על ידי המפקדים המוסמכים ולהקדיש את כל כוחותיי ואף להקריב את חיי להגנת המולדת ולחירות ישראל.
 

Which says that I accept allegiance to the state and the army to its laws and officers, without any precondition at all and I will obey all orders by officers etc.
When I was in the army, I asked the soldier who was in charge of my unit straight out, does this mean if the Rabbis say in the name of the Torah it is forbidden to evict Jewish settlers and the army says otherwise, you are obligating yourself to follow army law above Torah law.
He said yes.
I told him that in that case I don't accept the loyalty oath and do to me what you want, I am not taking it. However, I had a question if it was sufficient to just tell everyone in my unit about my plans, but stand at the ceremony or to refuse even to stand at the oath ceremony.

[edu]

excerpt from: http://www.vilnagaon.org/mount/draft_resistance.htm

Refusing Orders for the Sake of the Mitzva of Tzitzit - from the B'Sheva Newspaper article written on 30th of Av 5766 [the story appears in Rabbi Eliezer Melamed's article]
Displaying Tzizit in the Army

   About a month ago a group of students were drafted for army service. If in every place there is a mitzva to display one's Tzitzit so that they will be seen on the outside, for it was stated (Number 15,39) "And you shall see it and you shall remember all the commandments of Hashem and you shall do them and you shall not go astray after your hearts and after your eyes that you lust after them"; behold in the army, where in this framework we are warned especially to guard ourselves from every evil thing, the mitzva is doubled many times over.
   And so too did the Shulchan Aruch rule (O.C. 8:11): "The main mitzva of the small Talit {Talit Katan} is to wear it over one's clothes in order that it shall continually be seen and he will remember the commandments". However, in the name of The Ari it was stated, that the place of the small Talit is to be under the clothes. And many of the Jews of Sephardi origin are accustomed based on this to hide even their Tzitzit (YCHV"D 2:1). However the 'Magen Avraham' (8,13) explained that the intent was to hide the garment however, the Tzitzit have to be displayed. Furthermore, in his opinion, when the Tzitzit threads are not displayed there is a great doubt if one fulfills the mitzva.
  Our teacher and Rabbi, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook ZT"L, head of "Yeshivat Mercaz Harav", would over and over again repeat and recall the words of the 'Magen Avraham', that one is required to display on the outside his Tzitzit, so that they will be seen and by means of this, they will remember all the commandments. Continuing on with this line of reasoning, he would teach his students that one should be careful about displaying one's Tzitzit in the army, except for those situations where security requirements demand that they be hidden.
The Case in Golani
For the bad luck of the students that were drafted to the Golani {branch of the army}, the Major at "boot camp" was religious. And now you already understand everything.
In the beginning they decreed upon them to put their Tzitzit inside. They {the students} insisted to take them out. Afterwards they decreed to wrap them around the belt. They {the students} insisted to let  a greater length of the Tzitzit be displayed. Even the chaplain {rabbi} of the army stood on the side of the commander. However, from the Military Branch of the Chief  Rabbinate, an order descended afterwards that permits the display of Tzitzit in most cases.
The end result was that the seven youths were judged for fourteen days of military confinement and one of them who did not agree to be judged by a minor commander received a decree of 21 days. However, they continue to display their Tzitzit. Also other soldiers that were afraid at the beginning to display their Tzitzit began to display them. Praised be you who were caught on account of matters of Torah {end of quote}.
   In my opinion, if it is already permissible to struggle for the sake of the Tzitzit [even at the time of war] it is permissible to struggle for the sake of saving our brothers, who are going to die because of the Christian Morality of "Purity of Arms".
   What do I mean by the "Purity of Arms"? An example of this is the statement by Cabinet Minister Avi Dichter of Ehud Olmert's government that was quoted by the left wing Haaretz news {in Hebrew} on the internet on Tuesday the 21st of Av 5766, {Secular Date August 15, 2006}.
   "To what extent is the government involved with the question of morality when it grants permission to military operations?"
 
  "Dichter: In not a small amount of the discussions of the government, the dilemma is until what point do we untie the rope and give the I.D.F. a free hand. I will give you an example, namely, the operation of Marines {or Navy} Unit 13 in Tyre. You have no idea what type of danger there was in this operation. There was there a building many stories high with 80 apartments and 400 inhabitants.
The intent was to attack about 20 terrorists there. A one-ton bomb would destroy the building and the 400 civilians would be killed. It is clear to me that the U.S.A., England, and Russia would have done this. But I am very proud that the I.D.F. did not think of this option. I have no doubt that in the long run this approach keeps us human. In the day that we turn into animals then we will also act as animals. To my personal happiness , in this topic we preserve the human image. There is no asset more valuable than the human image."
 

   In contrast to Avi Dichter, Moshe {Moses} had a very different moral ideal.

   "Now Moshe was intensely angry at the officers of the army, namely, the Commanders of thousands and the Commanders of hundreds, that came back from the army that had engaged in the war. Now Moshe said to them, have you kept alive all the females. Behold they were by the counsel of Bi'laam a cause for making Israel transgress in the matter of Pe'or and the plague struck against the congregation of Hashem. And now kill all the young males and every woman who has gone to bed with a man you shall kill. And all the youngest female children  that have not known the bed of a man you shall keep alive for yourselves."  {Numbers Chapter 31; also see Rabbi Elitzur Segel's article in Tzipia Volume 3 where he brings many halachic sources to show that it would be permissible for a Jewish army to blow up a building that has a mixture of terrorists and enemy civilians within it.}

[Yerusha]

I am afraid to say it, but if the 2008 Merkaz Harav yeshivah massacre of knitted white kippot boys had instead taken place in Mirrer Yeshiva in Jerusalem or Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, and it had been 20 black-velveted kippot boys that had been slain by an Arab, we wouldn't be in this situation, and the Zahal recruitment halls would be overflowing evry year with thousands of Haredi volunteers.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I am afraid to say it, but if the 2008 Merkaz Harav yeshivah massacre of knitted white kippot boys had instead taken place in Mirrer Yeshiva in Jerusalem or Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, and it had been 20 black-velveted kippot boys that had been slain by an Arab, we wouldn't be in this situation, and the Zahal recruitment halls would be overflowing evry year with thousands of Haredi volunteers.

 Doubt it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This is the oath of allegiance in Hebrew that all soldiers must take
 Which says that I accept allegiance to the state and the army to its laws and officers, without any precondition at all and I will obey all orders by officers etc.
When I was in the army, I asked the soldier who was in charge of my unit straight out, does this mean if the Rabbis say in the name of the Torah it is forbidden to evict Jewish settlers and the army says otherwise, you are obligating yourself to follow army law above Torah law.
He said yes.
I told him that in that case I don't accept the loyalty oath and do to me what you want, I am not taking it. However, I had a question if it was sufficient to just tell everyone in my unit about my plans, but stand at the ceremony or to refuse even to stand at the oath ceremony.

So what did you end up doing?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am afraid to say it, but if the 2008 Merkaz Harav yeshivah massacre of knitted white kippot boys had instead taken place in Mirrer Yeshiva in Jerusalem or Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, and it had been 20 black-velveted kippot boys that had been slain by an Arab, we wouldn't be in this situation, and the Zahal recruitment halls would be overflowing evry year with thousands of Haredi volunteers.

Such an imagination on this one.   

You couldn't be more wrong.   And why do you act like haredim have never been murdered by terrorists?    Even while learning.  Don't you remember what the animals did to chabadniks in the early days?

[Yerusha]

Together with the Lubavitcher Rebbe's not-one-inch-stance, the 1956 Kfar Habad massacre http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=18383
is the reason why a higher % of Chabadniks serve in Zahal than any other Haredi group