ONE MILLION Haredim planning to march against a Torah command!

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Together with the Lubavitcher Rebbe's not-one-inch-stance, the 1956 Kfar Habad massacre http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=18383
is the reason why a higher % of Chabadniks serve in Zahal than any other Haredi group

 One does not lead to the other. Had the previous Chabad Rebbe not made his pro Eretz Yisrael statements and Haskaffa I very much doubt Chabadniks would volunteer the way that many of them do.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Here a simple example of a homicide arab nazi bomber murdering some Haredim. We didn't see them joining I.D.F. because of it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,46978,00.html

[edu]

Tag-MehirTzedek
I was just about to paste some evidence that terror attacks on Charedis don't necessarily add up to enlistment in the IDF, but I saw you were quicker in your response.
In any case, the link I wanted to supply describes the bus bombing, which killed many charedi jews on a return trip from the Kotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing
I remember at least some charedis concluded from the bus bombing, that it was a punishment because, there wasn't a separate men and women section for passengers on the bus. Or at least they did not merit Divine Intervention to save them because of this issue.
Other "spiritual" reasons are offered by Charedi ideologues such as Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak, to explain Arab terror. He never says joining the IDF is the solution.
Yerusha, you also made the assumption in your post that there is some link between joining the IDF and increased security. But as long as you have Israeli Ministers of Defense, who are elected to high party positions based on the Arab vote and as long as you have Israeli leadership that believes in the ideology of the "purity of arms" as well as,  "land for peace", don't expect a big improvement in security even if the I.D.F. doubles its size.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tag-MehirTzedek
I was just about to paste some evidence that terror attacks on Charedis don't necessarily add up to enlistment in the IDF, but I saw you were quicker in your response.
In any case, the link I wanted to supply describes the bus bombing, which killed many charedi jews on a return trip from the Kotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing
I remember at least some charedis concluded from the bus bombing, that it was a punishment because, there wasn't a separate men and women section for passengers on the bus. Or at least they did not merit Divine Intervention to save them because of this issue.
Other "spiritual" reasons are offered by Charedi ideologues such as Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak, to explain Arab terror. He never says joining the IDF is the solution.
Yerusha, you also made the assumption in your post that there is some link between joining the IDF and increased security. But as long as you have Israeli Ministers of Defense, who are elected to high party positions based on the Arab vote and as long as you have Israeli leadership that believes in the ideology of the "purity of arms" as well as,  "land for peace", don't expect a big improvement in security even if the I.D.F. doubles its size.

Well said.

[Yerusha]

Not quite a million Haredim demonstrating yet, but it's a start! http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4256339,00.html

The more the Haredim demonstrate their evil stupidity in fighting against the mitzva of Milchemet Mitzva, the greater will be the Kitrug against them from Shamayim, which is for the good.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Not quite a million Haredim demonstrating yet, but it's a start! http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4256339,00.html

The more the Haredim demonstrate their evil stupidity in fighting against the mitzva of Milchemet Mitzva, the greater will be the Kitrug against them from Shamayim, which is for the good.

Lol wut?

[Sveta]

I'm going to take the unpopular view of saying leave the Haredim alone.
Please don't attack or jump all over me. I would gladly fight or die for Israel. But if the super religious want to be in a Yeshiva all day and have 10 kids each then that's their thing.
Even if the government forces them to join the IDF or national service, they are not going to do it. They just wont go sign up and many will rather get arrested and go to prison than join.

Hopefully people won't hate me for saying this.

[muman613]

I'm going to take the unpopular view of saying leave the Haredim alone.
Please don't attack or jump all over me. I would gladly fight or die for Israel. But if the super religious want to be in a Yeshiva all day and have 10 kids each then that's their thing.
Even if the government forces them to join the IDF or national service, they are not going to do it. They just wont go sign up and many will rather get arrested and go to prison than join.

Hopefully people won't hate me for saying this.

I dont hate you for saying this. I am one who defends the Charadim quite often. I brought up this issue while meeting with my Rabbi last Sunday. He said he believes that there should be service for some Charadim who are not actively in Yeshiva learning or teaching. Those who truly dedicate themselves to Torah learning/teaching should be able to be exempt from service. He said this with the idea that the Torah study of the Jewish people protect us from harm from our enemies...

[Sveta]

Those who truly dedicate themselves to Torah learning/teaching should be able to be exempt from service. He said this with the idea that the Torah study of the Jewish people protect us from harm from our enemies...

I agree 100%.  If a man would rather and honestly really spend all day doing Torah study at a Yeshiva I would rather him stay there.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I agree 100%.  If a man would rather and honestly really spend all day doing Torah study at a Yeshiva I would rather him stay there.

While he depends on evil people for handouts so that his 10 kids don't starve?

[Sveta]

Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl).  I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
But if this is the life they choose that's their thing. I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve.  I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):

"These are the things for which a person enjoys the dividends in this world while the principal remains for the person to enjoy in the world to come. They are: honoring parents, loving deeds of kindness, and making peace between one person and another, but the study of the Torah is equal to them all"(Talmud Shabbat 127a)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl). 

But in the past, they didn't have a whole society of people in full-time kollel learning.   That is simply not reality.    Only the most elite learners and exceptional tzaddikim/scholars stayed in yeshiva, and only the best of the best out of that crop STAYED in yeshiva to become a rav/scholar (an actual job!) while the others went to work because they had to support themselves and a family.    There was no mass kollel system in the past. 

Ever hear of the Torah Temimah?    It was written by Rabbi Baruch HaLevy Epstein.   He was the star student of the Volozhin yeshiva run by his uncle, the Netziv.     To his regret, as he writes throughout his memoirs, he had to leave yeshiva in order to become a businessman, so that he could provide for his family.   He maintained his studies in his free time, and put together Torah Temima out of a lifetime of Torah study.   He is one of the greatest Jewish scholars.   And if he didn't remain in volozhin, can you imagine how many lesser scholars who were fellow students of his most certainly also went to work themselves?   Not everyone is destined to become a Bes HaLevy or a Netziv, and certainly no one expects hundreds of thousands to do so while collecting donations.

I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).

That also was not the case traditionally.  Men were expected to provide for their families.   Women were expected to raise children, not to hire indonesians or singaporians to do it while working since the man refuses to get a job.     Anyway, I don't have a problem with women working too.  But parents have to raise their own kids.

But if this is the life they choose that's their thing. 

They choose it less as time goes on because financial circumstances are forcing them to adapt to the impossibility of sustaining a system that is not sustainable.    The govt is trying to force immediate changes on them externally and that is wrong.    If they really cared about haredim, they would simply try to help ease the actual changes happening organically and remove restrictions from these Jews when they branch out to try different things.   Obviously the govt doesn't care about haredim or any Jews.

I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve.  I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):

Whatever the merit of these points, it doesn't change the historical reality that a mass kollel society is a modern-day innovation and it exists on an unprecedented scale that none of the generations past could have ever imagined, and secondly, that such a system is not sustainable economically.   They have no choice but to beg for handouts from evil people in the israeli govt because otherwise that system cannot persist.    And I really don't care that the govt has to pay the yeshivas, I'm speaking from the point of view of haredim - To be dependent on handouts (especially from evil people) is undignified and damaging to haredi men and haredi society.

[Sveta]

Haredim in Israel don't live that well. They could leave their communities, they could send their kids to universities to become lawyers and doctors and start buying bigger homes and more luxury. The choice is their but they want nothing of that. All they want is to live in their own communities and all they want is for us to leave them alone. Go into their neighborhood immorally and they're yell or throw stones until you leave. They really would rather people leave them alone. And they would rather be dragged to prison than serve in the IDF.

Personally, I choose to leave them alone. I don't mind if my money goes to assist a young religious man attend Yeshiva as long as he's honest in doing so. Just like in the future if/when I have a son and I can't afford any of the expensive religious schools for him in the US, maybe I can get some assistance (religious grants) for him to get a religious education. Although I would prefer to be able to afford it myself. Just an example.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.

The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.

The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".

The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.

The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.

The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".

If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.

Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.

[Dr. Dan]

So if Haredim "want to do their thing and we should leave them alone."  Then Secularist leftist should be able to do "their own thing and be left alone."

Can you solve that problem?

Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl).  I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
But if this is the life they choose that's their thing. I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve.  I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):

[Dr. Dan]

Chaim, but I have a question.  You bring up a good point about today's IDF.  But if it were the dignified type of IDF, what would your opinion be?

בס''ד

The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.

The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.

The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".

The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.

The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.

The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".

If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.

Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.

[Yerusha]

If you're put in the wrong Zahal unit you can lose everything.
I know a 20 year old Lubavitcher from Boston who volunteered for Zahal last year. After just 3 months in the army in a wrong unit, having been exposed to drunken Ukrainian goyim, secular gay soldiers, sluttish girl soldiers, anti-Zionist Bedouin, Circassian and Druze troops, evil nasty anti-Kahane anti-Rebbe leftwing officers, and exposed to alcohol and drugs, he became schizophrenic and completely relinquished the religion and became violently anti-Zionist himself. There are many cases like this.

Indeed, on a Satanic level, that is the very purpose of Zahal: to de-Judaize the population and turn them in to left-wing womanizing atheists! The only reason the Erev Rav who rule Israel are making such a tumult at this time is because they see that it it is their last chance to prevent the Haredim becoming the demographic majority by 2025, by forcing their compulsory mass conscription and mass secularization.

Zahal loathes the Orthodox-only Nahal Haredi and Hesder units, and would love to disband them. TPTB want Haredim to compulsorily join Zahal on their terms ie to be dispersed thought all the units, watered down, exposed to immodest females and secular values etc.

No way will Haredim join Zahal unless it is in to un-mixed Haredi units catering to their needs and preserving their group identity on every level ie Bobover Bombardiers, Sanzer Sappers, Mirrer Minelayers, Vizhnitz Infantry, Ponovez Tankists, Breslov Bridgelayers etc.

The Chillonim would literally rather disband Zahal and see the Medina fall than let Haredim join en masse in their own units and preserve their identity, and also get weapons training that could be used in a coup to storm the Knesset or even the Temple Mount. 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

בס''ד

 But if their was no army what would have happened then? The army also fights against Arab enemies (however weak it currently is). What is the solution then? I understand to not follow evil orders, but at the same time don't you see that an army or a force is needed to fight against the Arab enemies?

 Also you mentioned pre-Gush Katif, are you telling me their weren't any serious problems back then? Including the kidnapping of Jewish children, shooting of the Altellena and other such incidents.

[Sveta]

Yesterday night I downloaded some lectures into my MP3 player to listen in my car since I'm not listening to music while driving like I usually do.

Coincidentally, the lecture I turned on today spoke about this topic. I was surprised. I have the audio but there is also a video. Please listen to his explanation about this topic, it's what I wanted to say. I'm also quoting what Rabbi Benhaim says.

If the video doesn't work, here's the audio:

http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Avraham_Benhaim/2009-10-14/The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel/Rabbi__Avraham_Benhaim__The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel__2009-10-14.mp3


The entire lecture is great but the part that deals with this question starts at 10:33

That’s why we have to owe a tremendous appreciation to the yeshivot in Israel. We have to understand how much we should  be appreciative towards all the young people who study in kollelim, in Torah day and night. Instead of going and making a nice living by becoming engineers and doctors they go and become Talmudic hahamin.
Which is denigrated by most people and amongst them many Jews. “Hey go to work what is this”? They don’t  understand that what gives us the hope to keep the land of Israel and to keep the world alive is only because those people, those gentlemen sit down and study Torah.

That's what this Rabbi says. I know some people disagree and would want to force these young men into service, even though these young men will just go to prison for a few months and go back to continue their studies. Others say they are fighting a spiritual war. Others say that the secular Jews in Israel (who are the most vocal against the Haredi to serve, all while desecrating Shabbat themselves) put the country in danger.. And it is the Torah scholars and those who study Torah day and night who keep Israel safe from the detrimental spiritual threats.
-----------------
Yerusha, I agree with what you say.

We have to understand, Haredi young men have not hung around with women, outsiders and Israeli goyim all their lives. So we're going to take them out of their communities and throw them in with these groups of people? We're is our love for a fellow Jew in this. They study Torah every day and take great joy in doing so. They have a derech. But we want to take them out of this, divert their derech and right into the same room with these "slutty female soldiers" and I have seen some of these women.
I'm not extremely religious but I at least know how to behave and dress around ultra-religious people. I do not agree with tearing these young men from their religious life and putting them into an organization that hates them and looks down on their ultra-religious life with contempt. 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Rabbi Benhaim

 Rav Ben Haim is a great Rav I have been listening to his lectures. Thanks for posting this I am listening now, on the other hand I also do remember him saying that learning all day is not for everyone especially when he cannot afford it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

The article I mentioned earlier in full-- (thanks to)
 If you do not receive weekly Rabbi Kahane articles and would like to, contact me at:
[email protected]
 
To view additional articles written by Rabbi Kahane go to:
 www.barbaraginsberg-barbara.blogspot.com
 
“K  a  h  a  n e”
The magazine of the authentic Jewish Idea
November-December 1988                              Cheshvan – Kislev 5749
 
The following article written in 1988 is one of the top topics today in the Knesset and all-segments of the Israeli people.  It is the TAL Law.  Rabbi Kahane writes who should go into the army, who should not in this obligatory war we are fighting against our enemies. Separate unit for ultra-Orthodox in the army etc.    This article should be handed to Prime Minister Netanyahu and to all rabbis.  Amazing that Rabbi Kahane hit on the problem so many years ago, and came up with a solution.  Interesting reading for all. 
 
 
The Weakness
In their obsessive attack on authentic Jewry, what have the haters not touched upon?  How the “ultra-Orthodox” dress; how they speak; how they cheat; how they are parasites; how they are aggressive; how they keep to themselves.  All the horrible charges dredged up by the Nazis against the Jewish people, per se. All the Jewish anti-Semitism that is as brutal and nauseating as the gentile kind.
 
But amidst all the lies and calumny and defamation and sheer hate, there is one point which the haters have seized upon which strikes a tragically responsive chord in many a Jew in Israel who is not anti-religious.  That is the question of army service for Yeshiva students.
 
Let it be clear.  There is nothing more important for the Jewish people than the study of Torah.  Upon Torah study does Israel – and the world – rest.  Torah scholars are infinitely more important to Israel than any category of professionals and it is not relevant that secular Jews do not grasp this.
 
“The study of Torah is greater than the building of the Holy Temple.”
 
“The study of Torah is greater than honoring parents.”
 
“The study of Torah is greater than the priesthood and the kingship”
 
There is clear, beyond debate.  The question that remains, however is:  what does a scholar do in the time of a  milchemet mitzvah, an obligatory war, one of the categories that Maimonides (Hilchot M’lachim 5:1) lists:  “And what is an obligatory war?  The war against the seven (Canaanite) nations; the war against Amalek, and aiding Israel against an enemy that comes up against them.”
 
If ever there was such a war as mentioned in the third category it is surely this struggle against the Arabs who come up against us to destroy Israel.
 
Given that, it is surely a halachic question whether anyone is exempt from such a war.  Maimonides brings down the Braita (Tractate Sotah) and declares:  “In an obligatory war, all go out (to battle), even the bridegroom from his room and the bride from her canopy.” (Hilchot M’lachim 7:4)
 
Whether this includes those scholars who do nothing but learn is a question that many of the commentators deal with but it is certainly something to consider. What is clear is that the entire issue is one that has led to tremendous anger and bitter antagonisms on the part of many Jews who are not haters of Torah Judaism and let no one underestimate the damage and Hillul Hashem that this is causing.  The fact that sons of some Jews go into army and risk danger to life while others do not, is an explosive one that leads to intense bitterness especially when it is fanned by the professional inciters of Torah-hating Left.
 
If the halachic, nevertheless, says that scholars shall not go into the army – then that settles the issue, not matter how critical and bitter it will become.  But surely, the rabbis must deal decisively and courageously with the issue and not allow internal pressure from certain groups within the religious community to sway them or cause them to hesitate to rule forcefully if the halachic does call for army service for all scholars in the event of a milchemet mitzvah.
 
On the other hand, it is clear that a student who does not devote his entire time to Torah study; who does not “mediate therein day and night”; who studies only most or part of the day but also works or gives of his time to other things, is surely obligated to participate in a milchemet mitzvah. If one’s dedication to Torah is not total and one can find time to work, then he can certainly find time to participate in the obligatory war of defending his land and sanctifying the Name of the Almighty, which is the basis of a milchemet mitzvah.
 
The main argument against this, aside from that of “bitul Torah” taking time away from the learning of Torah, is the one that, a yeshiva scholar who is placed in the environment of the army can easily be led astray.  There is much, very much to this.  As one who has served for many years in the army, I can testify to the almost total lack of anything sacred in the army.  Not only is the atmosphere one that is totally secular but the immorality surrounding women soldiers is nothing short of scandalous. (And spare me the hypocritical pieties of: Do you not have enough faith in yeshiva students to trust them to overcome all this?  I will accept this argument from all the parents who will see nothing wrong in allowing their children to wander freely in any kind of atmosphere and accept their angry complaint:  Don’t you trust me?)
 
Nevertheless, there is a solution to this, also.  The army can be asked to set aside a large army base for the exclusive use of religious scholars.  There, they will undergo the same kind of training that other soldiers do and there they can have their rabbis visit each night and pass on Torah lessons to them.  It will be a base which will be totally religious, sacred and moral – but an army base in every sense of the word.
 
Is such a suggestion so extreme?  Hardly.  It will find favor in the eyes of G-d and Jews.  Consider how it would take from the Haters of Torah the most potent of weapons. Consider how it would sanctify the Name of G-d.  And above all, there is no doubt that it is an accord with halachic. 
 
Let those whose entire life is committed to Torah study be exempt, if the sages decide that even an obligatory war does not bind them.  But the others, the many others, who study only partially, cannot avoid the halachic obligation to participate in the milchemet mitzvah of defending the Land of Israel from the enemy that comes up against it.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Chaim, but I have a question.  You bring up a good point about today's IDF.  But if it were the dignified type of IDF, what would your opinion be?

בס''ד

Great question.

I support Rabbi Kahane's position but it is conditioned on our having a Jewish army that protects the Jewish people. Right now we have an army that often acts as an enemy of the Jewish people.

[The One and Only Mo]

They're not expecting the charedim to join the army; they want them to do National Service, which is work in hospitals and other places to help people (and get paid a bit, too).

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

But if their was no army what would have happened then? The army also fights against Arab enemies (however weak it currently is). What is the solution then? I understand to not follow evil orders, but at the same time don't you see that an army or a force is needed to fight against the Arab enemies?

 Also you mentioned pre-Gush Katif, are you telling me their weren't any serious problems back then? Including the kidnapping of Jewish children, shooting of the Altellena and other such incidents.

בס''ד

There will always be people who will enlist in the army. There will never be a situation where we have no army. If we ever reach a point where many Jews refuse to enlist because of the army's anti-Jewish practices, then the army will be forced to change for the better.

The army of the 1967 Six Day War and the 1973 Yom Kippur War was at least patriotic to a certain degree. Today's army is not even patriotic. Leftist generals are controlled by the anti-Semitic news media and the Supreme Court. Most of the army's major actions are harmful - expelling Jews, uprooting Jewish communities, helping Arab Muslim Nazis, brainwashing Jewish soldiers etc.

I must also say that I am furious with you right now. Yesterday you uploaded to this forum a Judenrat kapo video promoting the Muslim Nazi Barack Hussein Obama as a "friend" of Israel. I removed the thread containing the video because it caused unnecessary tension between members of this forum. But you uploaded this evil treasonous video and you wrote:

" It can be argued perhaps that when a more open anti-Israel president is in power, Jews are more aware of that, thus more cautious as well."

 I am not personally arguing for a more open anti-Israel administration. By the way some on the other political spectrum did claim that the democrats are the pro-Israel group compared to Republicans (that is what at least some will claim, not that I am agreeing them them, but that claim  is out there by some people and groups. Even Obama himself claimed that.

In other words, you put forth as a serious point for consideration that Obama and the Democrats are "pro-Israel"! You then included the Obama Judenrat video.

This is beneath contempt. You call yourself "Tag Mechir" and pretend to be a super rightwinger and then you come on this forum urging us to consider the argument that Obama is "pro-Israel". I have lost all respect for you. Obama who demands that Israel go back to the pre-1967 holocaust borders and who for two whole years demanded that Jews not be allowed to live even in Jerusalem is "pro-Israel"?!?!?!? This black Muslim Nazi serpert is now cooling it for a while to get reelected, but he has promised to begin a huge campaign to get Israel to commit suicide if he wins a second term, G-d forbid. And you want us to look at his videos telling us that he is "pro-Israel".

Let me make it as clear as I can: Obama is openly working to destroy Israel and enable another holocaust in order to make his Muslim brothers victorious. Any Jew who in any way supports or excuses this is a self-hating traitor. Supporting Obama is like supporting Arafat or Ahmedinajad.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

בס''ד

The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.

The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.

The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".

The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.

The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.

The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".

If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.

Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.

If only these were the arguments presented by the haredim and their leadership!   But we see that they do not say this or anything like it.   

This is simply a case of a broken clock being right twice a day.    The haredi leadership is against army service IN PRINCIPLE, just as they were in the better days when Rabbi Kahane served and fought.   They are still against it today for the same reasons as then.   And if tomorrow the IDF turned into an arab-killing machine, they would still be against it.   They prefer that Jewish men live in a kollel society and fighting in an army (how goyish!) is for "subpar" Jews like me and you, not them.