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Online Tag-MehirTzedek

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HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« on: July 23, 2012, 03:23:13 PM »

Rabbi David Bar-Hayim                                                                           


HaGaon HaRav Yoseph Shalom Elyashiv z’l passed away recently at the age of 102. A renowned Tora scholar, the Rav was considered the ultimate authority in the ‘Lithuanian’ Tora world.

HaRav Elyashiv's singular devotion to Tora study was well known. My father went to HaRav Elyashiv 41 years ago to ask him a question. My father told me that the Rav heard the question, thought for a moment, gave his response, and immediately returned to the volume of the Talmud that was open before him. It was clear, said my father, that one could not impinge upon the rabbi's time more than absolutely necessary. 

As the announcement of HaRav Elyashiv's passing was announced over a loudspeaker in my Jerusalem neighbourhood, I took note of the language used. An analysis of that language follows.

First there was a call for the Tora to gird itself in sackcloth (תורה, תורה, חיגרי שק). This is not unusual in such cases. What came next was more interesting. The following pasuq from M’ghilath Ekha (4:20) was paraphrased: רוּחַ אַפֵּינוּ מְשִׁיחַ ה', נִלְכַּד בִּשְׁחִיתוֹתָם:  אֲשֶׁר אָמַרְנוּ, בְּצִלּוֹ נִחְיֶה בַגּוֹיִם. (Translation: “The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of HASHEM (=the Jewish nation's king, see Rashi and Ibn 'Ezra) has been ensnared in their pits; about whom we said: 'In his shadow we shall live among the nations.”) The paraphrased version, which involves a play on words, went like this: רוּחַ אַפֵּינוּ מְשִׁיחַ ה', אֲשֶׁר אָמַרְנוּ בְּצִלּוֹ נִחְיֶה, נִלְכַּד בִּשְׁחִיתוֹתֵינוּ. (Translation: “The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of HASHEM (= HaRav Elyashiv), about whom we said: 'In his shadow we shall live’, has been ensnared by our sins.”)

Two questions come to mind:

1. How does the king, the political leader of the Jewish nation, transmogrify into a Tora scholar who, while looked up to by hundreds of thousands of Jews, was certainly not the leader of 'Am Yisrael?

2. Is it reasonable to suggest that when a great rabbi dies at the age of 102 it is due to our sins? Did Moshe Rabenu die at the age of 120 due to someone’s sins or because HASHEM decreed that a human life-span will not exceed 120 (B’reshith 6:3)? Does the pasuq in Ekha not refer to a relatively young Jewish king whom the people hoped would continue to lead them for many years to come, but who would eventually die and pass his crown to his successor?

Regarding the first question, one needs to internalize that according to Haredi hashqapha (outlook), we are not a nation. We are simply a collection of communities. Communities don't have political leaders; they have no need of them. Jewish communities, according to the East European Galuth model, have rabbis; seeing that the Beth K'neseth and Beth Midrash are the only areas of public activity, the rabbi is the leader. And even though a rav is not a king, it's nice to pretend. (This is one reason for the tendency of Hasidim to treat their rebbes like royalty. The goyim had a king who held court, and the Jews wanted one too.)  So Rav=king.

Regarding the second question, one must recognize that the Haredi world has developed the idea that great rabbis are practically immortal. "If the Rav died, we must have sinned." The idea that the Rav died because he was very old is apparently too exotic.  So death=sin.

The announcement continued: HaRav Elyashiv was referred to as M'or HaGola (the Light of the Exile). While true that HaRav Elyashiv was born in Lithuania, he and his family moved to Y'rushalayim when he was 14 years old. His entire adult life was spent in Y'rushalayim. So why the Light of the Exile? The fact that many Jews outside Israel followed his rulings is true but irrelevant. The explanation is simple: according to the Haredi hashqapha, we, the Jewish people, wherever we live, are in Galuth. Galuth=Jewish existence. It follows that if one lives in Galuth, M'or HaGola is the highest accolade one could possibly bestow upon an individual. Even if you do live in Y'rushalayim.

Next the Rav was referred to as Poseq HaDor (the ultimate Halakhic authority of the generation), an appellation coined by the hard-line ‘Lithuanian’ Yathed Ne’eman newspaper in 2001 as part of their campaign to crown HaRav Elyashiv as leader of the ‘Lithuanian’ world after the passing of HaRav Shakh z’l. This too is very telling. From the point of view of the ‘Lithuanian’ Tora world the matter is clear: “We are the Tora world=We are the generation=the Rav was the ultimate authority of the generation.” The ‘Lithuanian’ Tora world is convinced that they, and only they, know what Tora Judaism really is and how it works. Put simply: the rest of us don’t count. And no, I do not overstate the matter.

More worrying to my mind is the following fact that I have noted ever since the Rav was hospitalized over 6 months ago. The religious but non-Haredi radio station Gale Yisrael adopted the ‘Lithuanian’ line and referred to HaRav Elyashiv as Poseq HaDor. One would have thought that Gale Yisrael, which caters to the national-religious (NR) crowd, would have known better. Maqor Rishon, a nationalist newspaper, got it right: they consistently referred to HaRav Elyashiv as Poseq HaDor HaLitta’i (the ultimate Halakhic authority of the ‘Lithuanian’ world), a precise and objective description.

There cannot be one, universally recognized and accepted Tora personality, or even a universally accepted Beth Din or collection of Tora scholars, for the obvious reason that there is no one, cohesive Tora world. There are multiple Tora worlds, or outlooks, each with its own agenda and priorities. To that extent the Haredim are correct: we continue, for the meantime, to our shame and detriment, to exist as independent communities or networks.

Who will be the new Poseq HaDor HaLitta’i? Almost certainly no-one. The Haredi world is in the throes of an historical upheaval and is monolithic no more. The cracks are not only visible; they are widening.

I shall, be’H, elaborate upon the goings-on in the Haredi world and its ramifications in coming blogs.

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/608-the-ravs-blog-harav-elyashiv-zl-and-the-haredi-mind-part-01
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2012, 11:34:19 PM »
Very interesting.  And indeed, they do believe they are the definition of Judaism and everything else is subpar treife, and they express that view constantly.   

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2012, 12:20:27 AM »
Maybe I'll sound like a broken record around here.... But doesn't anyone really care that we are mourning the Temple during these nine days? What have the sages, at least most of the sages, said about the reason for the destruction and how to rectify it. I really try not to speak derogatorily about any sect of Judaism. Do we really need to join in speaking against Haredim? I don't.... I respect their lifestyle and I'll leave it at that...

http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/Formula_for_Jewish_Survival.html

http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/97833344.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2012, 12:47:39 AM »
Maybe I'll sound like a broken record around here.... But doesn't anyone really care that we are mourning the Temple during these nine days? What have the sages, at least most of the sages, said about the reason for the destruction and how to rectify it. I really try not to speak derogatorily about any sect of Judaism. Do we really need to join in speaking against Haredim? I don't.... I respect their lifestyle and I'll leave it at that...

http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/Formula_for_Jewish_Survival.html

http://www.aish.com/h/9av/ju/97833344.html

I never defamed their lifestyle or demand them to be like me.   I pointed out what they themselves express... in their papers... in their loudspeakers, etc.   They sincerely believe they are the epitome of Judaism and nothing else is relevant.   That is why Jews like you and me must serve them while they sit and learn and "hold up the world."     Is there a charedi Jew out there who does not agree to this point of view?   And if so, can he even be called haredi?


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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2012, 01:24:41 AM »
KWRBT,

I am not suggesting you did anything wrong. I just try to be a little careful about these kinds of things.

Indeed there are problems and I am not trying to ignore those problems.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2012, 02:02:04 AM »
Regarding Tag-MehirTzedek's quote of Rabbi Bar-Hayim
Quote
Did Moshe Rabenu die at the age of 120 due to someone’s sins or because HASHEM decreed that a human life-span will not exceed 120 (B’reshith 6:3)?
Rashi interprets that verse, that there was a gap of 120 years between the decree that the flood would come and the actual flood.
There is no limitation of G-d to live past 120. Moshe's brother and sister lived past that age and see Divrei Hayim{Chronicles} II chapter 24 verse 15, where the Bible records that the righteous, Cohain Gadol, Yehoyada lived till age 130.

Offline edu

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2012, 02:08:58 AM »
Regarding the quote:
Quote
Regarding the second question, one must recognize that the Haredi world has developed the idea that great rabbis are practically immortal. "If the Rav died, we must have sinned." The idea that the Rav died because he was very old is apparently too exotic.  So death=sin.
I will try to judge for the benefit of the doubt. There is a concept in Judaism that eventually the Jews will reach the spiritual level to rectify the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and nullify the decree of death in this world. Perhaps the Haredis were stressing the point that because the nation of Israel hasn't yet succeeded in reaching that spiritual level, death is still in place.

Offline edu

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2012, 12:53:12 PM »
Rabbi Bar-Hayim, shlit"a asks
Quote
How does the king, the political leader of the Jewish nation, transmogrify into a Tora scholar who, while looked up to by hundreds of thousands of Jews, was certainly not the leader of 'Am Yisrael?
There are places where the Talmud calls the Leading Rabbis of the generation, by the label, "Kings".
See Gittin 62a as an example.
This might be the Haredi application of this Talmudic statement.
There's room to argue if the application is or is not correct, but at least the Haredis have a source to rely on.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2012, 01:18:41 AM »
Regarding Tag-MehirTzedek's quote of Rabbi Bar-HayimRashi interprets that verse, that there was a gap of 120 years between the decree that the flood would come and the actual flood.
There is no limitation of G-d to live past 120. Moshe's brother and sister lived past that age and see Divrei Hayim{Chronicles} II chapter 24 verse 15, where the Bible records that the righteous, Cohain Gadol, Yehoyada lived till age 130.

That completely misses the point.  In spectacular fashion.

The rav's point is that old people die from old age.   God created nature to operate as such.       The denial of this concept was what he was addressing.     Probably there is a shita that says God limited man's lifespan to 120, and maybe Rav Bar Hayim holds of that one so he presents it in this format.   And there's probably a shita that it can get to 130, based on the fact you point out.   And others probably hold of that.     The difference is not relevant to this discussion, not even slightly.    The point is that an old man, whether 102, or 120, or 130, dies from his old age over time, and not because "we sinned."   As if Rav Eliashiv would have lived forever if we behaved better?    !?

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2012, 02:25:34 AM »
This may be something to consider... David HaMelech was destined to live only 3 hours... Adam HaRishon was able to foresee this and he gave 70 years of his life to King David... We should not say that a man can only live 100-120 years, Hashem will decide when it is time.



http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5768/bereishis.html

Quote
Adam Regrets His Gift to Dovid

The Medrash teaches that the Almighty showed Adam the history of mankind --each generation and its leaders. In the course of this "exhibition," Adam was shown the soul of Dovid HaMelech [King David] and the fact that he was destined to live only 3 hours. Adam was very grieved at this loss of potential. He inquired whether he was allowed to bequeath some of his own years to Dovid. The Almighty answered that Adam was destined to live for 1000 years, but that he would be allowed to give up some of those years to Dovid. Adam then bequeathed 70 years to Dovid, so that Adam lived for 930 years and Dovid lived for 70 years.

Chazal teach that when Adam was about to turn 930 years old, he regretted his earlier generosity and wanted to back out of the deal. G-d urged Adam to keep his word. G-d pointed out that Adam would have a descendant Yaakov who would make a vow and keep it. Ultimately, Adam agreed to keep his earlier vow.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 07:39:50 PM »
This may be something to consider... David HaMelech was destined to live only 3 hours... Adam HaRishon was able to foresee this and he gave 70 years of his life to King David... We should not say that a man can only live 100-120 years, Hashem will decide when it is time.



http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5768/bereishis.html

 Okay but should be assume that an old man dieing is because of our sins? Don't you see a natural order to life where people usually aged 70 and up are expected to depart from this world? Even the 4 people who never comitted any sins died- Benyamin ben Yaakov, Yishai father of Dawidh, son of Dawid etc.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 01:46:47 AM »
Question for Tag-MehirTzedek
The Torah stresses that Moshe Rabbeinu died, because of personal and national sin (see Dvarim/Deut. 3:26 concerning the element of national sin) even though he reached the age of 120.
It was not old age that killed Moshe, it was sin.
So what is your problem, that the Charedis also apply this idea to other people?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 04:00:45 AM »
This may be something to consider... David HaMelech was destined to live only 3 hours... Adam HaRishon was able to foresee this and he gave 70 years of his life to King David... We should not say that a man can only live 100-120 years, Hashem will decide when it is time.



Is Hashem also the author of Bereshith 6:3 ?  Or are you going to tell God that He can't say man has a limited lifespan?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 04:02:11 AM »
Question for Tag-MehirTzedek
The Torah stresses that Moshe Rabbeinu died, because of personal and national sin (see Dvarim/Deut. 3:26 concerning the element of national sin) even though he reached the age of 120.
It was not old age that killed Moshe, it was sin.
So what is your problem, that the Charedis also apply this idea to other people?

So the leading haredi torah sage is equated to moshe rabenu now, too?   
........

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 09:45:22 AM »
Question for Tag-MehirTzedek
The Torah stresses that Moshe Rabbeinu died, because of personal and national sin (see Dvarim/Deut. 3:26 concerning the element of national sin) even though he reached the age of 120.
It was not old age that killed Moshe, it was sin.
So what is your problem, that the Charedis also apply this idea to other people?

 This is what (Well quick google translation I found, their are many that says this)

" But because of you the LORD was angry with me and would not listen to me. "That is enough," the LORD said. "Do not speak to me anymore about this matter. "

 What is your point? i thought this was talking about entering Eretz Yisrael of which Moshe was not allowed.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2012, 02:12:02 PM »
Jerusalem bible translation of 3:26
"But the L-rd was angry with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the L-rd said to me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more to me on this matter".
To supplement this see Rabbeinu Bachayei's commentary about the simple meaning.
See also Dvarim 32 verses 50 to 52, where again the point is made that sin caused Moshe to die and see Dvarim 34 verse 6, that the Torah stresses there that his body was in great shape not showing signs of old age, when he died, thus again stressing that his death was due to sin and not old age.

Offline muman613

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2012, 04:03:01 PM »
I believe that when Moshe said to Korach "You have enough" that this was viewed as the improper response to Korach and Moses was told "Enough" when he was praying so that he could enter the land. See Sotah 13b...
Quote
http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/moshe.htm
Gd told Moses, "You have enough [Rav Lach]," as a punishment for Moses having told Korach, "You have enough." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "You now have a master [Joshua]." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "It is enough; don't make me appear too harsh": Sotah 13b

Excerpt from Sotah13b

Quote
WHOM HAVE WE GREATER THAN MOSES etc. And the Lord said unto me, Let it suffice thee.19  R. Levi said: With the word 'suffice' [Moses] made an announcement and with the word 'suffice' an announcement was made to him. With the word 'suffice' he made an announcement: 'Suffice you';20  and with the word 'suffice' an announcement was made to him: 'Let it suffice thee'. Another explanation of 'Let it suffice [rab] thee' is, Thou hast a master [rab], viz., Joshua.21  Another explanation of 'Let it suffice thee' is, That people should not say: How severe the Master is and how persistent the pupil is.22  And why so? In the School of R. Ishmael it was taught: According to the camel is the burden.23

And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day.24  Why does the text state 'this day?' [The meaning is], This day are my days and years completed.25  Its purpose is to teach you that the Holy One, blessed be He, completes the years of the righteous from day to day, and from month to month; for it is written: The number of thy days I will fulfil.26  I can no more go out and come in24  — what means 'go out and come in'? If it is to be understood literally, behold it is written: And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated;27  it is also written: And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo;28  and it has been taught: Twelve steps were there, but Moses mounted them in one stride! — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: [It means] to 'go out and come in' with words of Torah, thus indicating that the gates of wisdom were closed against him.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2012, 03:31:45 AM »
This is what (Well quick google translation I found, their are many that says this)

" But because of you the LORD was angry with me and would not listen to me. "That is enough," the LORD said. "Do not speak to me anymore about this matter. "

 What is your point? i thought this was talking about entering Eretz Yisrael of which Moshe was not allowed.

That is indeed what the pasuk is about.  The rabbis talk about how Moshe kept davening over and over again requesting Hashem's permission to enter until finally Hashem says drop the matter.

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2012, 03:48:05 AM »
Sota 13b says he lived a full life and died at 120 years of age precisely on the day he was born, because that is what happens with righteous people.  Quite the opposite of saying he died because of sin.
Should we ignore this and radically reinterpret some more verses in a forced way instead?

I haven't yet seen the above referenced rabenu bachye but I have a very hard time accepting the proposed understanding by edu. Doesn't seem to fit.

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2012, 04:02:24 AM »
Sota 13b says he lived a full life and died at 120 years of age precisely on the day he was born, because that is what happens with righteous people.  Quite the opposite of saying he died because of sin.
Should we ignore this and radically reinterpret some more verses in a forced way instead?

I haven't yet seen the above referenced rabenu bachye but I have a very hard time accepting the proposed understanding by edu. Doesn't seem to fit.

Did you learn anything from todays Parasha?

Moshe was not allowed to go into the land BECAUSE OF THE SIN of striking the rock, and not talking to it. This sin was caused by his own transgression, along with the sin of the people for mocking Moshe when he spoke to it and it didn't give forth the water. Rabbi Pinchas Winston explained this facet in a video I posted last week. What Edu pointed out above is that due to the combined personal and national sin, Moshe was not permitted to enter the land.

Although there is a medresh I heard which explains that Moshe asked Hashem why his prayer was not granted and Hashem explained that if Moshe were to go into the land then Hashem would destroy his people. Because when the Sin of the Golden calf occured Moshe davened for forgiveness when Hashem said he wanted to destroy the entire nation and make Moshe a great nation. Because of Hashem granting them forgiveness at that time Moshe was not allowed to enter. If Moshe were to enter then the Temple which Moshe build would be eternal, and Hashems anger would be taken out on the nation. Because Moshe did not enter the land, Hashem was able to take out his anger on the building and not on the people.

This is a lesson I learned this Shabbat...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2012, 04:03:43 AM »
The verses cited by edu in devarim chapter 31 and 32 all refer to Moshe's punishment of not getting to enter Eretz Yisrael.  This is of course due to sin.   Already in last week's parsha which we read this morning (v'etchanan) this idea is mentioned and picked up in the commentaries.  Overwhelmingly the commentaries associate the sin(s) of Moshe with his punishment of not going into the land, and this seems a very obvious slam dunk interpretation.    Attaching death as his punishment requires a lot of twisting and turning, leaving aside the fact that no haredi or other scholar can be compared with Moshe rabenu.  I just do not see it in the verses at all but it still wouldn't explain away the obvious here, even if you could by some forced stretch impose that reading on the verses as an alternative.  The obvious I refer to is:  edu, do you actually believe that Rav Eliashiv would have lived forever if Jews behaved better?

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2012, 04:07:53 AM »
I see your concern before I post this and I agree I do not compare any Rabbi in our generation to Moshe Rebbeinu... But this is a theoretical discussion concerning whether death of a tzadik is punishment for a sin...



Here is an expression of what I was explaining in the post I made above. From Ohr.edu....

http://ohr.edu/this_week/ask_the_rabbi/2774

Quote
Perhaps this can help us understand your question regarding Moshe. Relative to Moshe's extremely lofty spiritual position, his becoming angry with the Jewish people, calling them "rebels" and deviating from G-d's command to speak to the rock by hitting it instead, was tantamount to disbelief in G-d and to chillul Hashem – a desecration of G-d's name. This is implied in the verse, "Because you did not believe in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of Israel, therefore you shall not bring them into the Land" (Num. 20:12). In fact, chillul Hashem is considered one of the gravest offences, and is so described by Rambam in his Laws of Teshuva. Even though Moshe surely did the highest form of teshuva m'ahava – repentance out of love for G-d, not fear of punishment — this apparently was not enough to fully atone for the (relative) severity of his act, and perhaps the decree that he be barred from entering the Land of Israel was needed for a complete atonement.

That being said, the words of Midrash Yalkut Shimoni (Parshat V'etchanan) are very illuminating. In discussing Moshe's 515 prayers to repeal the decree, the Midrash portrays in great detail the dialogue between Moshe and G-d in the prophet's plea to enter the Land. After hearing Moshe's very compelling arguments, G-d finally replies that either he'll have to die outside the land or the Jewish people will have to die. This enigmatic response may be explained as follows:

If Moshe and Aharon would enter the Land, the Temple they would build would be eternal. However, G-d saw that the Jewish people would eventually greatly sin and be liable for destruction. The destruction of the Temple was thus necessary as a means of arousing Jews to repent. Had it not been vulnerable to destruction, harsher measures against Jewry would have been required. For this reason Moshe was prevented from entering the Land.

According to this, Moshe's teshuva effected complete atonement for himself. Still, he was barred from entering Israel for the ultimate good of the Jewish people. When Moshe understood this, he made the ultimate sacrifice for the people he so loved and prayed no more to repeal the decree.

My understanding of all of this is that Moshe could have entered the land, he was not physically incapable of making the cross over to the Jordan, but because of what happened he was not destined to lead the Jews into the land.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2012, 04:11:16 AM »
Did you learn anything from todays Parasha?


Excuse me?  You may need to go back and reread this thread because you demonstrate a misunderstanding of the positions being presented here.

Quote
Moshe was not allowed to go into the land BECAUSE OF THE SIN of striking the rock, and not talking to it.

The nature of the sin and precisely what it was is heavily debated among the scholars.  You have chosen one valid view of the sin.

Indeed, for his sin, whatever it was, he was not allowed into the land.  I never once argued against that.

 I DID argue against the idea that Moshe DIED because of sin.  (Or that Hashem punished his sin w death rather than the punishment to not enter the land).

Please read carefully before jumping to attack me.
Also note the fact that you have not posted anything which contradicts me.  At least not up until this point.  Also note that nothing you posted thus far lends any support to edu's claim.

Offline muman613

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2012, 01:20:03 PM »
KWRBT,

I am sorry if you feel I was attacking you personally. This is not my intention and if my words were not appropriate I ask your forgiveness.


But on this topic let us clarify our positions...

1) I believe that Edu and I are arguing that Moses did not die because of 'old age' or any physical issue with Moses body. We suggest {according to sources} that Moses died because of the combined sins of his striking the rock, and the sins of the people {Sin of Golden Calf, Sin of Spies, complaining, etc.}.

2) I suspect you are arguing against this and saying that because Moses was 120 that he was 'old' and it was natural for him to die at that time.

The primary source to prove he died because of sin comes from Parasha Pinchas which I will reproduce below.

Bamidbar 27:12-14

12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.

There are many sources in the Talmud which explain some of this. I found this page from WebShas which discusses the Talmuds insights concerning the end of Moses life:

http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/moshe.htm

Moses Striking the Rock [Merivah]
Moses wanting his sin to be recorded in the Torah: Yoma 86b
Pharaoh had the boys thrown in the river because his astrologers informed him that the Jews' redeemer would die by water. In fact, this prophecy referred to Moses's problem with the Waters of Merivah, when he hit the rock: Sotah 12b


The Last Year in the Desert
Moses's desire to set up the cities of refuge: Makkot 10a
Gd's promise to Moses that Moses would get to establish cities of refuge: Makkot 12b
Gd was exacting in punishing Moses because that is the way He deals with very righteous people: Sotah 13b
Gd told Moses, "You have enough [Rav Lach]," as a punishment for Moses having told Korach, "You have enough." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "You now have a master [Joshua]." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "It is enough; don't make me appear too harsh": Sotah 13b
Why Moses wanted to make it into Israel: Sotah 14a
Moses's desire to fulfill the Mitzvot which may only be performed in Israel, and Gd's response: Sotah 14a
Moses climbed Mount Nebo (Har Nevo) on the day of his death in a single bound: Sotah 13b
Moses did not weaken physically toward death, but Gd sealed the gates of wisdom from him: Sotah 13b
On the last day of Moses's life, Gd took authority from him and gave it to Yehoshua, so that the two ruled on that day: Sotah 13b
The date of Moses's death: Megillah 13b; Kiddushin 38a; Sotah 12b
Moses received his full allotment of years, dying at the end of 120 years: Sotah 13b
Moses died with a "kiss" from Gd: Moed Katan 28a
Did Moses really die: Sotah 13b
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2012, 01:23:09 PM »
Here is a further explanation of Medrash Rabbah concerning the dialog between Hashem and Moshe before Moshe was gathered back to his people...



http://www.chabad.org/parshah/in-depth/default_cdo/aid/53120/jewish/In-Depth.htm

But G‑d was angry with me for your sakes (3:26)

G‑d said to Moses: You can't have it both ways. I have already nullified My decree and upheld yours. I said: "I shall destroy them" (when Israel worshipped the Golden Calf), and you said "forgive them"—and your desire prevailed. Now, if you wish that your desire, "let me cross over," should be upheld and My decree (that you not enter the land) be nullified, then you most retract your "forgive them"; if you wish "forgive them" to be upheld, then you must retract "let me cross over."

When Moses heard this, he proclaimed: May Moses die, and a hundred like him, and not a fingernail of one of them be harmed! . . .

When Moses approached death and the children of Israel did not appeal to G‑d on his behalf that he should enter the Land, Moses gathered them together and began to rebuke them. He said: One man saved 600,000, and 600,000 cannot save one man!

(Midrash Rabbah)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14