Did the Holocaust cause the creation of the a Jewish State?

[The One and Only Mo]

It seems that Truman allowed the creation of a Jewish State because Jews had no other place to go after the concentration camps. Thus, if the Holocaust never happened and Jews didn't have to leave Hitler's countries to go to "Palestine"/Israel, would there ever have been a need for a Jewish State?

[Dr. Dan]

The creation of a Jewish state was carved out in the Balfour Declaration in the early 1900's.  The White Papers which followed made the Jewish state smaller...or actually retracted the promise of the Balfour Declaration.  Therefore, a Jewish state was well on its way to be created.  This was around before or after WWI. 

The British were duplicitous.  They promised one thing to the Jews and another thing to the Arabs and that's where the UN got involved to create an even tinier Jewish state than originally promised. 

I think since during the Holocaust, people assumed it would be the end of the Jews so there was no Jewish state that had to be made.  But once the war was over and Jews survived, the UN must of thought, "Oh crap, since we are a new organization, we better look good by creating these crappy suicidal borders for the Jews with all the crap desert and swamps.  Meh, the Arabs will wipe them out in two seconds anyway...no harm done by looking good."

And sure enough, that backfired for all of the Jewish peoples' enemies.  Too bad the majority of Jews lack faith in the same Gd of Israel that saved them from the Egyptians and redeemed them on Sinai.  The survival of Israel is modern day miracle.  The strength and resolve of the Jewish people especially after the Holocaust and this situation being outnumbered 100:1 blows my mind. 

Too bad it seems very few people even realize this.  We are a special people chosen by a living Gd.

[The One and Only Mo]

The creation of a Jewish state was carved out in the Balfour Declaration in the early 1900's.  The White Papers which followed made the Jewish state smaller...or actually retracted the promise of the Balfour Declaration.  Therefore, a Jewish state was well on its way to be created.  This was around before or after WWI. 

The British were duplicitous.  They promised one thing to the Jews and another thing to the Arabs and that's where the UN got involved to create an even tinier Jewish state than originally promised. 

I think since during the Holocaust, people assumed it would be the end of the Jews so there was no Jewish state that had to be made.  But once the war was over and Jews survived, the UN must of thought, "Oh crap, since we are a new organization, we better look good by creating these crappy suicidal borders for the Jews with all the crap desert and swamps.  Meh, the Arabs will wipe them out in two seconds anyway...no harm done by looking good."

And sure enough, that backfired for all of the Jewish peoples' enemies.  Too bad the majority of Jews lack faith in the same Gd of Israel that saved them from the Egyptians and redeemed them on Sinai.  The survival of Israel is modern day miracle.  The strength and resolve of the Jewish people especially after the Holocaust and this situation being outnumbered 100:1 blows my mind. 

Too bad it seems very few people even realize this.  We are a special people chosen by a living Gd.

Right, but since there were already so many Jews in the area, where were they going to go?

[Dr. Dan]

Right, but since there were already so many Jews in the area, where were they going to go?

To an unestablished Jewish nation which was already in the making anyway.  However the UN "legalized" the creation of Israel as well as other nations at the time.  Was it due to the Holocaust?  Maybe..or it was due to a plan that was already in place.  I'm not sure to be honest.  It would make a good AskJTF question.

[The One and Only Mo]

To an unestablished Jewish nation which was already in the making anyway.  However the UN "legalized" the creation of Israel as well as other nations at the time.  Was it due to the Holocaust?  Maybe..or it was due to a plan that was already in place.  I'm not sure to be honest.  It would make a good AskJTF question.

Thanks Dr. Dan. We really need a Jewish History section on the forum (ahem ahem Shlomo) lol.

[Rubystars]

I think the fact that Israel was going to be founded was God's will and it would have been founded regardless.

[briann]

This is a third rail subject....  there may be truth to it... but its also quite an offensive idea to many Jews.

Also....... this idea is part of the reason why Muslims are so likely to be avid holocaust deniers.

[muman613]

In my study for Tisha B'Av I have learned that we believe that in order for progress to happen there must be destruction. The destruction of the Temple was necessary in order for the prophecy of the final redemption to be fulfilled. Every apparent bad thing which seems to result in our destruction, in the end will be the means to achieve our complete redemption.

From the Talmud, Makkot 24b:

Again it happened that Rabban Gamliel, Rabbi Elazar ben Azaria, Rabbi Joshua and Rabbi Akiva went up to Jerusalem. When they reached Mt. Scopus, they tore their garments. When they reached the Temple Mount, they saw a fox emerging from the place of the Holy of Holies. The others started weeping; Rabbi Akiva laughed.

Said they to him: "Why are you laughing?"

Said he to them: "Why are you weeping?"

Said they to him: "A place [so holy] that it is said of it, 'the stranger that approaches it shall die,'1 and now foxes traverse it, and we shouldn't weep?"

Said he to them: "That is why I laugh. For it is written, 'I shall have bear witness for Me faithful witnesses--Uriah the Priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.'2 Now what is the connection between Uriah and Zechariah? Uriah was [in the time of] the First Temple, and Zechariah was [in the time of] the Second Temple! But the Torah makes Zachariah's prophecy dependent upon Uriah's prophecy. With Uriah, it is written: 'Therefore, because of you, Zion shall be plowed as a field; [Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the Temple Mount like the high places of a forest.]'3 With Zachariah it is written, 'Old men and women shall yet sit in the streets of Jerusalem.'4

"As long as Uriah's prophecy had not been fulfilled, I feared that Zechariah's prophecy may not be fulfilled either. But now that Uriah's prophecy has been fulfilled, it is certain that Zechariah's prophecy will be fulfilled."

With these words they replied to him: "Akiva, you have consoled us! Akiva, you have consoled us!"

[LoneRanger]

Do not think Truman was a great guy.  Truman was a vocal antisemite.  He said to David Susskind, "I know that the Jews are G-d's chosen people but I think G-d had better taste", and also to David Susskind in Independence, Missouri, "Mrs. Truman never invited a Jew into her home and I will not break the tradition".  This was told to presidential historian David Beschloss by Susskind.

[The One and Only Mo]

Do not think Truman was a great guy.  Truman was a vocal antisemite.  He said to David Susskind, "I know that the Jews are G-d's chosen people but I think G-d had better taste", and also to David Susskind in Independence, Missouri, "Mrs. Truman never invited a Jew into her home and I will not break the tradition".  This was told to presidential historian David Beschloss by Susskind.

So why didn't he just agree with that dude Marshall, who said something along the lines that if Truman voted for the creation of Israel, Marshall wouldn't vote for Truman in the upcoming election? Could he not just have said F the Jews altogether, and not made such a big deal about the travesties of the Holocaust?

[The One and Only Mo]

This is a third rail subject....  there may be truth to it... but its also quite an offensive idea to many Jews.

Also....... this idea is part of the reason why Muslims are so likely to be avid holocaust deniers.

If someone told me that the population boom in Israel was due to the Holocaust, I wouldn't be offended. I read about all of these Jewish refugee camps which were created to house these Jews. It said hundreds of thousands of Jews were put into these camps before they were integrated into Israeli society.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It seems that Truman allowed the creation of a Jewish State because Jews had no other place to go after the concentration camps. Thus, if the Holocaust never happened and Jews didn't have to leave Hitler's countries to go to "Palestine"/Israel, would there ever have been a need for a Jewish State?

Truman "allowed it" ?

?


Where in the world are you getting your history from?
Sorry, but you are incorrect.

[The One and Only Mo]

Truman "allowed it" ?

?


Where in the world are you getting your history from?
Sorry, but you are incorrect.

Maybe the word "allow" was too much, but I saw in a documentary that portrayed Truman as having a big say on what happened. He talked about having seen the pictures from the Holocaust and that the Jews went through so much that it was time that they got a home. You remember that speech?

[cjd]

The issue of a Jewish State was found on Truman's presidential desk along with many other issues when FDR bit the dust in Warm Springs Georgia... Truman  did not have the deciding word on the issue but as one of the major players in the world picture back then he needed to push the right buttons to move the process along... From what I have read I always get the feeling Truman would have been far more comfortable with things if he never had to deal with the issue of Israel... In the end he grudgingly did what the American president needed to do to move the process along... I strongly believe if it were up to him to have started the process it would have never happened...

[The One and Only Mo]

The issue of a Jewish State was found on Truman's presidential desk along with many other issues when FDR bit the dust in Warm Springs Georgia... Truman  did not have the deciding word on the issue but as one of the major players in the world picture back then he needed to push the right buttons to move the process along... From what I have read I always get the feeling Truman would have been far more comfortable with things if he never had to deal with the issue of Israel... In the end he grudgingly did what the American president needed to do to move the process along... I strongly believe if it were up to him to have started the process it would have never happened...

I wish I could ask Obama what he would have said.

[cjd]

I wish I could ask Obama what he would have said.

I have a feeling he would make Truman look good by comparison... It's hard to look back on presidents like Truman with out factoring in many issues... The main issues is the fact that what understanding could a  Baptist haberdasher / farmer from Lamar, Missouri born in 1884 have about Jewish Issues... Truman was already a old man when he became president and it was already very late in the game for him to change ingrained notions on social and religious issues in a world that was not very politically correct... There was really not much to gain or loose politically for Truman back then by being an advocate for the creation of a Jewish state... From what I have read it seems that the great loss of Jewish Life greatly disturbed him and might have made him act  in more in favor of a Jewish state than in opposition...

Truman wrote:
Hitler had been murdering Jews right and left. I saw it, and I dream about it even to this day. The Jews needed some place where they could go. It is my attitude that the American government couldn't stand idly by while the victims [of] Hitler's madness are not allowed to build new lives

The shvartza President however being a younger more educated person in a Politically correct world should have a better understanding of world issues and the pitfalls the people of Israel face.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Maybe the word "allow" was too much, but I saw in a documentary that portrayed Truman as having a big say on what happened. He talked about having seen the pictures from the Holocaust and that the Jews went through so much that it was time that they got a home. You remember that speech?

That sounds like a basic propaganda film extolling the virtues of Truman and putting him on the side of "good" in world history.   The real history certainly didn't involve anyone asking his permission.    Please do yourself a favor and acquire some books about the history of zionism and the history of the founding of the state of israel.       

Lastly, are you sure you are not mixing up Truman with General (future president) Eisenhower, who witnessed the camps in person and this had a lasting impact on him personally?     Truman did have some speeches in favor of zionism, in fact Chaim Weizmann was a close personal friend of his whom he admired, however Truman was no savior of Jews, he was an american president, he played the political games, and it was only a defiant Israeli declaration of independence which pushed the envelope and forced the parties involved to choose a side and show their cards.   Truman chose against his state dept nazis, but to say that he "allowed israel to be created" flies in the face of all that we know about history.    Zionism flourished from the mid to late 1800's up until 1948, and all of that set the stage for statehood.  Truman had not even a political role as a US personality until he became president in 1945.   

And if the US didn't react to that declaration with official recognition of a state of Israel, or if any country that reacted with recognition did not do so, the Israelis had no intention of retracting their declaration!  It was not contingent on acceptance, although they wanted that.

Now read this for some additional perspective:  http://www.wymaninstitute.org/letters/2004-02-06-mom.php

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The issue of a Jewish State was found on Truman's presidential desk along with many other issues when FDR bit the dust in Warm Springs Georgia... Truman  did not have the deciding word on the issue but as one of the major players in the world picture back then he needed to push the right buttons to move the process along... From what I have read I always get the feeling Truman would have been far more comfortable with things if he never had to deal with the issue of Israel... In the end he grudgingly did what the American president needed to do to move the process along... I strongly believe if it were up to him to have started the process it would have never happened...

I strongly agree with the bold part from what I have read myself.

And your last statement is kind of the point behind all zionist history.  It didn't happen in a vaccuum, the Jews forced the issue and made it possible.  Only then could the players on the world stage react and go along with it.    The Jews never asked anyone's permission (although they campaigned for approval, political support, help and cooperation, along the way) and no American president started or finished that enterprise.

[Dr. Dan]

I asked an Israeli this question and the answer which I got was, "It probably contributed to it, but the UN only did it so that they wouldn't feel so guilty for what happened in the Holocaust."

I just take it a little bit further by assuming that they drew the borders the way they did knowing that they could be annhilated easily by the Muslim Nazi countries surrounding them and therefore didn't want to look bad by saying "No" to a Jewish state...Basically to wash the blood off their hands so to speak.

I think this way because until this day, the UN is anti-semetic and still tries to create situations that would compromise Israel's existence and embolden the Jewish people's enemies. 

[The One and Only Mo]

I wanna piss on the UN

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I asked an Israeli this question and the answer which I got was, "It probably contributed to it, but the UN only did it so that they wouldn't feel so guilty for what happened in the Holocaust."

But in reality, the UN also did not create the state of Israel!

I just take it a little bit further by assuming that they drew the borders the way they did knowing that they could be annhilated easily by the Muslim Nazi countries surrounding them and therefore didn't want to look bad by saying "No" to a Jewish state...Basically to wash the blood off their hands so to speak.

I think this way because until this day, the UN is anti-semetic and still tries to create situations that would compromise Israel's existence and embolden the Jewish people's enemies.

Yes, from day 1 the UN intended to empower the arab nazi genocide machine.

[TruthSpreader]

But in reality, the UN also did not create the state of Israel!



Yes, from day 1 the UN intended to empower the arab nazi genocide machine.

That's right. God did!

[cjd]

I strongly agree with the bold part from what I have read myself.

And your last statement is kind of the point behind all zionist history.  It didn't happen in a vaccuum, the Jews forced the issue and made it possible.  Only then could the players on the world stage react and go along with it.    The Jews never asked anyone's permission (although they campaigned for approval, political support, help and cooperation, along the way) and no American president started or finished that enterprise.

Yes, from what I have read this is my understanding as well... People looking for books on Truman and this issue should look for older publications... I always find the older material more factual and not altered so much by political correctness.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That's right. G-d did!

Ok you raise a fair point, but it wasn't even what I had in mind.  I agree that there was certainly a great deal of hashgacha pratit behind all those events, but in other words, God didn't bring about a Jewish state through the UN but rather by means of the zionists.  The UN just voted to give official recognition to the concept of a Jewish state.  It didn't even end up w the same borders as what they voted on.  Its not like if the UN voted no on partition that Jews were going to fold up shop and go back to europe!  It was already a fait accompli whether the world gave recognition or not.  And even if no recognition might have delayed it, it would have still happened even without recognition.

Leaving aside the religious significance of all those events, it is clear to me from the history that a Jewish state came about because of the Jewish pioneers and especially the Jewish underground - NOT because of a un partition vote.  It was the jewish underground which caused the british to surrender and turn to the un and eventually leave.  One who hasn't learned the history can easily misunderstand this, especially because of the pervasive arab propaganda which says that jews were "given" a state because of the holocaust - only the completely ignorant can believe this.