Author Topic: Should there be a "no proselytizing to Jews" rule for the JTF? (Read 6707 times)

Ehud · « **on:** July 01, 2007, 01:14:05 AM »

Due to the recent incident with Allen-T and the questions that ftf and thunderbolt posted to Chaim, should a rule be added for new members that says that they must not support proselytizing to Jews? Of course this would reduce JTF's membership but it would also prevent hostilities and turmoil from occurring. It seems to me that the survival of the Jewish people and encouraging their Judaism and aliyah to Israel are fundamental beliefs of JTF so not to make this rule seems contradictory. Thoughts?

Dexter · « **Reply #1 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:16:19 AM »

I Agree

jdl4ever · « **Reply #2 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:17:46 AM »

I wrote this in ask JTF to Chaim. We must have this rule.

newman · « **Reply #3 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:18:50 AM »

I think Chaim might lay down the law tomorrow.

I believe that when christian zionists served with Yekutiel's dog squad they had to pledge or swear not to proselytise. Everything went OK. That rule also applies to kibbutzim volunteers.

Ehud · « **Reply #4 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:29:51 AM »

Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on July 01, 2007, 01:24:41 AM

We already do have this rule. Look in the rules thread.

OK well maybe we should make that rule more prominent. It seems like multiple people were not aware of it or chose to ignore it.

newman · « **Reply #5 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:33:01 AM »

Quote from: Yacov Menashe Ben Rachamim on July 01, 2007, 01:24:41 AM

We already do have this rule. Look in the rules thread.

That rule applies to on the forum only. Members should pledge never to do it under any circumstances as far as jews are concerned. They can proselytise to non jews 'til the cows come home.

Trumpeldor · « **Reply #6 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:44:18 AM »

We don't need a special rule for this. It is as clear as 'Do Not Kill'.

newman · « **Reply #7 on:** July 01, 2007, 01:50:51 AM »

Quote from: Trumpeldor on July 01, 2007, 01:44:18 AM

We don't need a special rule for this. It is as clear as 'Do Not Kill'.

To us it is. But the christians will maintain that proelytising is a sacred duty and will say it's unfair of us to ask them to decist from that one aspect of their faith. If there is an up-front pledge, they won't join if they feel that strongly and they'll be no squabbles between 'members'.

Trumpeldor · « **Reply #8 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:00:13 AM »

Quote from: newman on July 01, 2007, 01:50:51 AM

Quote from: Trumpeldor on July 01, 2007, 01:44:18 AM
We don't need a special rule for this. It is as clear as 'Do Not Kill'.

To us it is. But the christians will maintain that proelytising is a sacred duty and will say it's unfair of us to ask them to decist from that one aspect of their faith. If there is an up-front pledge, they won't join if they feel that strongly and they'll be no squabbles between 'members'.

I have been approached by proselytizing Christians. Within one minute of conversation, they easily determine that I am Jewish. Why would it be so hard for someone who agrees with JTF's message to 'desist' at that point?

Zvulun Ben Moshe · « **Reply #9 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:00:55 AM »

How about the following line?

I hereby agree to the terms and conditions of the Eternal Covenant.

newman · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:14:34 AM »

Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on July 01, 2007, 02:00:55 AM

How about the following line?

I hereby agree to the terms and conditions of the Eternal Covenant.

Won't work with that lot because they twist theology. They will maintain that The rule change implemented by the late JC is an extension of the eternal covenent......Circular logic , you see.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:22:22 AM »

There always has been an anti-proselytizing rule, and it applies to all faiths if I am correct.

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM »

if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

newman · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:37:45 AM »

Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM

if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

We're not the ones affected. It's vulnerable, nolearned secular jews who get eaten by these people.

Zvulun Ben Moshe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:42:43 AM »

Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM

if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

I agree with you, danny, but the problem is that some Christians are impatient to wait for the Messiah and they want "salvation" now.

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #15 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:43:28 AM »

Quote from: newman on July 01, 2007, 02:37:45 AM

Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM
if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

We're not the ones affected. It's vulnerable, nolearned secular jews who get eaten by these people.

Precisely....that's not the evangelical's or missionary's fault. That's our fault..our problem. Certainly we as Jews shoudl be angry about non Jews who prey on these lost Jews to convert them..but we rather than complain, we need more Chabad and more Jews for Judaism and anti-missionary groups out there to educate secular and lost Jews on campus about what we are about.

Worst yet is when a Jewish boy or Jewish girl goes with the non-Jew when they are in college or live away from their parents..and the worst part is when the parents aren't tough enough against their child when he/she does that.

Bottom line, it's a jewish problem when these things happen. The missionaries aren't to blame..they are doing their thing as their religion teaches them even though we disagree with it and hate it.

Dr. Dan · « **Reply #16 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:45:25 AM »

Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on July 01, 2007, 02:42:43 AM

Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM
if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

I agree with you, danny, but the problem is that some Christians are impatient to wait for the Messiah and they want "salvation" now.

Listen, Chabad want the moshiach now also...some are pretty agressive out there..but you know what? I love them for it....the Christians who do this aren't to blame..It is ourselves as Jews.

cosmokramer · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:47:31 AM »

There should be a set of rules that you have adknowledge before you sign up on this forum.

newman · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:52:31 AM »

Quote from: cosmokramer on July 01, 2007, 02:47:31 AM

There should be a set of rules that you have adknowledge befpre you sign up on this forum.

amen, amen

cosmokramer · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2007, 02:55:26 AM »

Also the first hint of prosyletzing you should be banned, many of our Christian brothers and sisters believe in Jesus. I dont believe in Jesus since I am a Jew. Aside from that, the sign of a real Christain is not to force you into their religion. We are all going to face G-d one day.

Ehud · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2007, 03:05:16 AM »

Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM

if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

This rule has nothing to do with practicality, it has to do with principle. Of course I'm not afraid that a Christian will convert any of us. I personally don't want to associate with people whose aims are to Christianize every last Jew on earth.

newman · « **Reply #21 on:** July 01, 2007, 03:11:11 AM »

Quote from: Z. Jabotinsky on July 01, 2007, 03:05:16 AM

Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM
if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

This rule has nothing to do with practicality, it has to do with principle. Of course I'm not afraid that a Christian will convert any of us. I personally don't want to associate with people whose aims are to Christianize every last Jew on earth.

Anus-t is aclassic example of the missionary mentallity . They pretend to be pro jewish, but they're anti-semitic to their boot straps.

MasterWolf1 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 01, 2007, 03:28:36 AM »

The problem I have about missionaries and I am a Christian speaking on this,, it is what Islam does but not at the extent of Islam that they force death. But throug the hidden words of converting. And the past few days has been really something else, my question is for upcoming YT films we need for the movement, who will step up to the plate I know Jimmy, Oz and a few others do a phenominal job on those but to replaced the disgruntal postal worker. Can anyone else take over that?

Ehud · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2007, 03:30:43 AM »

Quote from: MasterWolf1 on July 01, 2007, 03:28:36 AM

The problem I have about missionaries and I am a Christian speaking on this,, it is what Islam does but not at the extent of Islam that they force death. But throug the hidden words of converting. And the past few days has been really something else, my question is for upcoming YT films we need for the movement, who will step up to the plate I know Jimmy, Oz and a few others do a phenominal job on those but to replaced the disgruntal postal worker. Can anyone else take over that?

I'd like to make it known that I am willing to do whatever I can to fulfill the responsibilities that Allen-T abandoned.

Zvulun Ben Moshe · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2007, 03:41:03 AM »

Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:45:25 AM

Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on July 01, 2007, 02:42:43 AM
Quote from: dannycookie57 on July 01, 2007, 02:34:02 AM
if it is a rule, it is a rule.

but come on...don't get so offended so easily when a Christian comes up to you to talks about the glory of Jesus. Big deal. YOu know what happens afterwards? We say, "No thank you" and then they answer, "Gd bless you I'll pray for you..." and then you respond, "Gd bless you too and I'll pray for you too."

woopee woa...la dee da. When the messiah comes...it won't matter if it is the second coming or the first coming...it's a messiah and a good thing...

I agree with you, danny, but the problem is that some Christians are impatient to wait for the Messiah and they want "salvation" now.

Listen, Chabad want the moshiach now also...some are pretty agressive out there..but you know what? I love them for it....the Christians who do this aren't to blame..It is ourselves as Jews.

I listened. Now you listen.

For 70 years the official religion of Soviet Union had been atheism, and thus any kind of religiousness was not only discouraged, but even punished.

Right before the collapse of this evil empire, in 1990, my father came back from Moscow and brought with himself a Christian Bible, which he got from the first foreign missioners, whom Gorbachev allowed in as a sign of adherence to the new “democratic” changes.

That was the first religious book I held in my hands. My parents knew almost nothing of Judaism, except for keeping holidays etc.

Around the same time the first American movies and cartoons were demonstrated on the Russian TV. Many of them were about Jesus.

Believe it or not, despite my unawareness of the Jews vs Jesus thing, I still could not accept anything beyond the “Tanach”. It was not going through my throat. Despite my natural and absolutely unconscious rejection of the “New Testament”, I still felt being used by those early missionaries.

In the year of 2000, when I had learned “a little” about Judaism, I was approached by a Muslim, who suggested to me that I convert to Islam, because Islam believes in one G-d. I said to him that when Jews believed in One G-d, future Muslims were still praying to stones and animals, and I suggested to him to convert into Judaism instead.

In other words, my friends, to argue with Jews about their religion is the same as a stock broker arguing with a doctor about medicine.