Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on August 21, 2012, 12:52:00 AM ---Most in the western world perhaps, but not all, and mysticism is not taught by the Yemenite communities. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true. Just as in the days of Elijah there were very few Jews who followed Elijah and most combined Baal worship with Judaism, there is a similar case today. People are waking up to this and that is why rabbis like Rabbi Bar-Hayim are out there saying the same things about the Zohar and certain mystical doctrines. When I first joined this forum I was shut down for even mentioning a hint of this message, and was once actually banned temporarily. But now more people are starting to take a rational approach to Judaism, and I believe this must happen as a precursor to the Mashiach, that more and more Jews will look at Judaism not only as religious doctrines to be played around with in the brain but also as a true, practical, moral, reasonable lifestyle in line with the faith and lives of their forefathers.
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It could very well be that you are right.
And just as I have freedom of thought to think you are correct (because I do agree with your line of thought here in this post), Muman has freedom of thought to think you are incorrect, and that's fine. I think freedom of thought is sometimes a hard concept for people to accept especially religious people. But Muman, you should not take offense at the above suggestions just because you are more mystically inclined! Obviously, you think otherwise and you think people who think along the lines of Dan and I, that our ideas will never 'catch on' and will not become more popular. Ok, so what's the harm?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on August 21, 2012, 01:39:07 AM ---Jewish rationalism takes as axiomatic that there is a G-d and that he spoke through the prophets. The rationalism refers to the approach by which we interpret what they said and apply it to our lives. In other words, if I believe G-d spoke to Moses, I want to use reason to determine what G-d most likely wanted me to take from that revelation. I would not make up a whole new set of dogmas to help understand it, I'd try to look at it logically. Since I want to be as sure as possible about the truth of that revelation, I would not want later innovations to get in the way of understanding the true intent of that revelation.
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On the other hand, you can never really get the "true intent" (TM) though. Even perush doesn't quite do the job because we have not written down Moshe's original perush in written form word for word as he gave it in the desert and during the travels of the Jews.
This was most likely preserved orally which by its very nature is a more liquid and less formalized format, and ancient aspects of the Talmud alluding to it are mostly legal in nature rather than interpretive. (actually even the ancient interpretive methods are employed for legal conclusions moreso than hashkafa or philosophical interpretations!) There's much more to say on this topic but hopefully I made the point I was trying to bring up.
Perush is still only an approximation no matter how much we try to use logic, and even our logic will change as we learn more about the world and find out new things, so there is always a bit of "biur" influence in what we say about certain verses. We can't help but to inform our opinion based on other knowledge we have, and which previous generations might not have had.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on August 21, 2012, 02:57:37 AM ---You can see there are stories, agadtot in the Gmara that the Tanaim and Amoraim, of sages practicing magic, and there is discussion about mystical world of demons and angels and magical creatures.
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You do raise an important point.
On the other hand, the Rambam says point blank that demons do not exist. I tend to agree with him on that. So in general, I don't pay much attention to statements about demons when they come up in my learning.
Others I'm sure feel differently on that subject.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 21, 2012, 11:16:58 PM ---Of course I've "heard" this. The Torah. Not Judaism.
You made up something new here.
(by saying Judaism existed before Jews and was a religion of mysticism... or something).
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I didn't say that Judaism existed before Abraham... But my point was that the idea of the Torah existing for 2000 years before creation comes from the Talmud, not a mystical source...
muman613:
KWRBT,
I have no problem with people who disagree with mysticism.... My problem is in the insulting comparisons of Chassidic Judaism to Nation of Islam and Black Hebros. He has repeatedly said these insults in a way which was not considerate, and I became defensive.
I apologize for some of what I said, but I do believe that Dan could say things in a more considerate manner...
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