Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Shalom
muman613:
KWRBT,
You said that Chabad Rebbe figured out the meaning of Para Adumah? I have never heard of that. Could you please find a reference to it? I could ask one of my Chabad Rabbis about it but I would like to wait for your answer...
muman613:
All the Kabbalah and Chassidus is assuming that the Jew is following the mitzvot which are applicable in the absence of the Beit HaMikdash. There is nothing in these that is essential for a Jew to know, only things which will keep him interested in the study of Hashems ways as learned from mystical sources.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 22, 2012, 01:11:31 AM ---I didn't say that Judaism existed before Abraham...
--- End quote ---
... But you did, though.
Direct quote: "Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet."
You claimed that Judaism existed before Jews did.
--- Quote ---But my point was that the idea of the Torah existing for 2000 years before creation comes from the Talmud, not a mystical source...
--- End quote ---
I know that the point made in THIS POST and supported by your citation in THIS POST was about Torah existing before creation (however one understands that). But you presented these statements to defend your ORIGINAL POST where you claimed that Judaism existed before Jews, the post which I disputed originally. And that is why I now commented on this defense to tell you that what you cited/quoted here does NOT support your original assertion.
Now I guess this is your way of admitting that.
What you are now trying to say is that mysticism dates back very far?
You will have a hard time trying to prove that because there is no textual evidence to support such a claim. The main mystical text (zohar) emerged in the 1300's. Attempting to claim that zohar's statements go back to time immemorial - is nothing more than speculation that cannot be proven. More likely, certain concepts in there have historical precedent or passed on by mesorah, but certainly not the TEXT itself, and certainly not all of the ideas in it.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 22, 2012, 01:16:08 AM ---KWRBT,
You said that Chabad Rebbe figured out the meaning of Para Adumah? I have never heard of that. Could you please find a reference to it? I could ask one of my Chabad Rabbis about it but I would like to wait for your answer...
--- End quote ---
Well I didn't say he figured out the meaning, I said that he claimed to have figured out the meaning. Or more precisely, he claimed that chabad chassidus figured out the meaning. That is an outlandish claim, IMO. I saw this in a youtube video. The rebbe was giving a speech and said about how chabad chassidus enabled us to understand the para aduma. I would have to search for it to find it.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on August 22, 2012, 03:51:57 PM ---... But you did, though.
Direct quote: "Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet."
You claimed that Judaism existed before Jews did.
I know that the point made in THIS POST and supported by your citation in THIS POST was about Torah existing before creation (however one understands that). But you presented these statements to defend your ORIGINAL POST where you claimed that Judaism existed before Jews, the post which I disputed originally. And that is why I now commented on this defense to tell you that what you cited/quoted here does NOT support your original assertion.
Now I guess this is your way of admitting that.
What you are now trying to say is that mysticism dates back very far?
You will have a hard time trying to prove that because there is no textual evidence to support such a claim. The main mystical text (zohar) emerged in the 1300's. Attempting to claim that zohar's statements go back to time immemorial - is nothing more than speculation that cannot be proven. More likely, certain concepts in there have historical precedent or passed on by mesorah, but certainly not the TEXT itself, and certainly not all of the ideas in it.
--- End quote ---
Abraham was not a Jew in the sense that he was not at Sinai... It is said that he kept the Torah.... It is also said that Noah knew what the Kosher animals were despite the Torah not having been given. My point is that the Torah, in a spiritual/mystical sense, existed before the creation of the Jewish people.
I don't know why you insist I am saying something other than this.
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