Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 49334 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2012, 10:23:02 PM »
Actually Dan (I glimpsed through your quote from the Tanya, while I myself don't adhere to it I need to point this out)
 You brought  "The kindness of the nations is sin" This is from the Tannach- Prophets. Not even from the Talmudh (which one can claim people made up). I think it is talking about in general terms of nations. Not necessarily each individual within the nation. In simple terms you can say each nation has its own interests of which it is working for. Don't rely on the "kindness" of nations because everyone does things for their own interests.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2012, 10:23:58 PM »
and sects only came into being after the Jews were dispersed.
Dispersed when? I'm talking about before the second Temple was destroyed.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2012, 10:29:37 PM »
But according to the Tanya Noah and Job's righteousness would be because they are self-seeking.  Do you believe this is the case?

 Ask a Chabad Rabbi before claiming XYZ on their text regarding this because we do not see this as you say.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2012, 10:31:03 PM »
Here are the excerpts from the relevant portions of Talmud Bavra Basa 10b:



Rabban Johanan b. Zakkai said to his disciples: My sons, what is the meaning of the verse, Righteousness exalteth a nation, but the kindness of the peoples is sin?

R. Eliezer answered and said:  'Righteousness exalteth a nation:' this refers to Israel of whom it is written,  Who is like thy people Israel one nation in the earth? But 'the kindness of the peoples is sin': all the charity and kindness done by the heathen is counted to them as sin, because they only do it to magnify themselves,  as it says,  That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savor unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king and of his sons. But is not an act of this kind charity in the full sense of the word, seeing that it has been taught: 'If  a man says, — I give this sela for charity in order that my sons may live and that I may be found worthy of the future world, he may all the same be a righteous man in the full sense of the word'? — There is no contradiction; in the one case we speak of an Israelite, in the other of a heathen.

R. Joshuah answered and said: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation,' this refers to Israel of whom it is written, Who is like thy people Israel, one nation on the earth? 'The kindness of peoples is sin': all the charity and kindness that the heathen do is counted sin to them, because they only do it in order that their dominion may be prolonged, as it says, Wherefore O king, let my counsel be acceptable to thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thy iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, if there may be a lengthening of thy tranquility.  Rabban Gamaliel answered Saying: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation': this refers to Israel of whom it is written, Who is like thy people Israel, etc. 'And the kindness of the peoples is sin:' all the charity and kindness that the heathen do is counted as sin to them, because they only do it to display haughtiness, and whoever displays haughtiness is cast into Gehinnom, as it says, The proud and haughty man, scorner is his name, he worketh in the wrath ['ebrah] of pride, and 'wrath' connotes Gehinnom, as it is written, A day of wrath is that day. Said Rabban Gamaliel: We have still to hear the opinion of the Modiite. R. Eliezer the Modiite says: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation': this refers to Israel of whom it is written, Who is like thy people Israel, one nation in the earth. 'The kindness of the peoples is sin': all the charity and kindness of the heathen is counted to them as sin, since they do it only to reproach us, as it says, The Lord hath brought it and done according as he spake, because ye have sinned against the Lord and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you.R. Nehuniah b. ha-Kanah answered saying: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation, and there is kindness for Israel and a sin-offering for the peoples.' Said R. Johanan b. Zakkai to his disciples: 'The answer of R. Nehuniah b. ha-Kanah is superior to my answer and to yours, because he assigns charity and kindness to Israel and sin to the heathen.' This seems to show that he also gave an answer; what was it? — As it has been taught: R. Johanan b. Zakkai said to them: Just as the sin-offering makes atonement for Israel, so charity makes atonement for the heathen.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2012, 10:31:58 PM »
What the Tanya does is expound on the principles of the Jewish sources. You may disagree with it, but you should look into the sources before you criticize it...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2012, 10:33:44 PM »
"Also the Noahide laws are not secret."Quote from Dan. Did you know our country was built off of them?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2012, 10:34:19 PM »
Anyway.... We are not going to reach an agreement on this tonight. Dan is entitled to believe what he wants. Each of us has a responsibility to honestly search the sources and using our experience be able to decide which ideas to pursue.

I don't care if anyone doesn't accept Kabbalah or mysticism as it is not essential for the observance of the mitzvot. What is important is for Jews to perform the commandments which were given to us at Sinai...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2012, 10:41:52 PM »
Muman- "Just as the sin-offering makes atonement for Israel, so charity makes atonement for the heathen."

 Soo the Talmudh concludes that charity is good for the heathens.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2012, 10:42:11 PM »
After the Jews were exiled after the destruction of the Second Temple, only one sect survived, the Pharisees, which has become Orthodox Judaism.  They passed down the Oral Torah.  All Orthodox Jews have kept this.  However, not all orthodox Jews have a mystical tradition.  This is not because mystical secrets were only passed down to "some" sects (just as the Oral Torah was not only passed down to "some") but because it was invented during the Hasidic movements in the west and spread.  All claims that it comes from the Talmud is extrapolation and reading it into the Talmud, similar to how Muslims say Islam was taught from the very beginning.

This is not true... Do some reading of the Talmud and Medresh before you make these comments.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2012, 10:43:28 PM »
Muman- "Just as the sin-offering makes atonement for Israel, so charity makes atonement for the heathen."

 Soo the Talmudh concludes that charity is good for the heathens.

That is not the question.... The basic premise is that the nations kindness is different than the idea of Chesed..

Are you aware that the Torah was offered to all the other nations before it was given to the Jewish people?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2012, 10:43:41 PM »
After the Jews were exiled after the destruction of the Second Temple, only one sect survived, the Pharisees, which has become Orthodox Judaism.  They passed down the Oral Torah.  All Orthodox Jews have kept this.  However, not all orthodox Jews have a mystical tradition.  This is not because mystical secrets were only passed down to "some" sects (just as the Oral Torah was not only passed down to "some") but because it was invented during the Hasidic movements in the west and spread.  All claims that it comes from the Talmud is extrapolation and reading it into the Talmud, similar to how Muslims say Islam was taught from the very beginning.
There was three sects! And one was connected to the Hasidic! your telling me none of those teaching made it out after the Temple was destroyed?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2012, 10:44:07 PM »
From this I'm not picking up the same ideas that the Tanya is pushing.  What I see is an evolution of sinful nations in a Proverb into Jewish supremacy with the Tanya, similar to the way we have shown before on the forum that a verse in Job about repentance evolved into reincarnation among the Chasidim.

You are not familiar with enough sources to make these comments..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2012, 10:45:54 PM »
Good night.... This topic is going nowhere {while I can provide many more examples which prove the point that the Talmud does suggest that the Jewish soul is different {not necessarily superior, but beloved by Hashem} from the soul of the nations.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2012, 10:46:45 PM »
We know this based on Oral tradition from the Jews--not through mystical doctrines like Kabbalah.  Oral Torah/Talmud and Kabbalah/mysticism are 2 different things.  Chasidic Jews pretend that their modern mystical doctrines come from the Talmud, but that's just like Christians pretending Jesus can be found in the Torah/Prophets.  It can only be done with a stretch.

Continue making things up.... You think it gets you somewhere? Not likely...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2012, 10:49:08 PM »
Dan, you are a neo-phyte and you attempt to speak like a Talmid Chocham.... I really have little respect for such an inflated ego. You can follow whatever cochamamie rabbi you like but just don't go around claiming he is THE ONLY truth....

Chassidic Jewery has kept the Jewish people alive for many centuries. You cannot come around an defame our rabbis and expect Jews to sit quietly. I for one will not...

You are not even a Noachide and already you have some screwed-up beliefs. Thank G-d you are not a Jew!

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2012, 10:52:55 PM »
Dan, you are a neo-phyte and you attempt to speak like a Talmid Chocham.... I really have little respect for such an inflated ego. You can follow whatever cochamamie rabbi you like but just don't go around claiming he is THE ONLY truth....

Chassidic Jewery has kept the Jewish people alive for many centuries. You cannot come around an defame our rabbis and expect Jews to sit quietly. I for one will not...

You are not even a Noachide and already you have some screwed-up beliefs. Thank G-d you are not a Jew!
MUMAN! Totally uncalled for!! Really!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2012, 10:54:04 PM »
I'm sorry to everyone about this stupid thread!! Asher is probably laughing his pants off right now!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2012, 10:58:42 PM »
The sects were the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots.  The only one that survived were Pharisees.  They were not connected to the Chasidim.  The Chasidim arose much later in Europe.
There was the one!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 03:34:20 PM by Ephraim »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2012, 11:00:18 PM »
I'm sorry to everyone about this stupid thread!! Asher is probably laughing his pants off right now!

What is the harm in this thread?

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2012, 11:04:31 PM »
What is the harm in this thread?
Our own people attacking each other!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2012, 11:26:10 PM »
Our own people attacking each other!

That only makes this place more interesting to newcomers, which is what we want.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2012, 11:31:30 PM »
This shmutz-bag was held up here by some members a few months ago. Only after Chaim pointed out how much of a hater of Israel and how much he goes against Jewish tradition {claiming that the whole world should convert to Judaism} do some people see through this heretics ruse.   

Actually many of us already knew that.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2012, 11:32:26 PM »
In this article Mori Bar-Ron obliterates the ignorance and arrogance spread by this asher Meza character.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2012, 11:34:44 PM »
It is irrelevant if Asher Meza is Jew by birth or by conversion. His actions of heresy and fraud are the issue. He is misleading Jews and righteous gentiles from true Judaism to his crazy distortion.

Also, there is a way to conduct discussion within Judaism with mutual respect and without strife.

True.

And true.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Yemenite rabbi responds to Asher Meza's "Dor Deah" movement
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2012, 11:53:48 PM »
Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet. The 1st books of Kabbalah are attributed to Adam, and others are attributed to Abraham...


That's a real mind-bender.   You are saying "Judaism" existed before Jews did?   And pre-Jew Judaism was mystical.   Come on, now.