Yimach shemo to The Current Israeli Government!

[muman613]

It makes me cry thinking that some discussions here on JTF might be appropriate on Nueta Karta websites. We should not hate the state of Israel. Indeed all is not ideal, all is quite upset, and it is looking kinda creepy. But it is the land of Israel, the Eretz Yisrael. While it is heart-wrenching to watch this sick drama going on in our lifetime we also should feel a bit privileged to be witnessing this.

It is our responsibility to do something to make sure that righteous Jews succeed in Israel. We all are quite shocked at how strong the evil side has grown, the erev rav who sit in the knesset plotting and planning the eviction of Jewish families from our G-d given heritage. Could any human being write a movie plot so convoluted and completely repulsive? This is the divine plan we are witnessing, awesomely heavy on our hearts and minds.

Don't we all awake in the morning and first thing, check the news in Israel, read the pro-Israel blogs and check our Email for relevant information regarding the Jewish peoples experience in today's world? I do this and as you would expect it causes me great stress and makes it hard to serve G-d with the joy I am expected to serve with. It is a double edged sword which is laying against our throats. But I always remember that a Jew should never despair, even when the sword is on our throat.

Hate is an emotion which only has good application in a few situations. In general, according to my understanding of Jewish thought, hate is a negative trait. It will lead a man to do things without much thought which he may have regrets for doing. As King Solomon says in Ecclesiastes there is a time for every thing under heaven. Thus we learn that there indeed must be a positive characteristic to the emotion of hatred.

Our hatred must make us stronger in our attempts to turn the situation around. Our hatred must make us look into ourselves, and evaluate ourselves, looking for ways to improve our ability to reach out and affect the people around us. Our hatred of our enemies must make us stronger in our desire to build up our defensive and offensive weaponry, in order to put down any attempt to kill the Jewish people in their land.

Israel appears quite messed up at this point. But let us not begin cursing Jews, even the marginally bad Jews, because we learn through the Talmud that every Jew, even the non-observant, has as many mitzvot {good deeds/commandments} as a pomegranate has seeds {which tradition says has 613 seeds approx}.

I feel very bad about this situation. I feel many of our members frustration at being unable to do much more than be internet warriors. But some of us do actually put our money where our heart and mind is. As Chaim has said during his AskJTF shows, this organization could use some more contributions. I admit that I have not given as much as I would like to have... And I will make a pledge that I will be giving to JTF soon... I suggest everyone who reads this who can sacrifice a few Dollars to do so as a Charitable Act which would qualify as a Mitzvah of Tzedakah for the upcoming Rosh Hashana holiday...

May our prayers be heard during this upcoming month of Elul...
May our members be strengthened in all their good middot, and against their evil inclination...
May we all be blessed with health, and long life...

Amen....

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

KWR, I think you are misunderstanding Mo. Mo agrees with everything Chaim says. All he was arguing is what we all agree on--that Israel is far too slavishly tied to the United States and refuses to look out for its own interests. How would Chaim disagree with that?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

But that's your opinion.  Many of us think the majority of Israelis do NOT support it.  Chaim included.  He disagrees with your assertion that majority of Israelis support things like this, as he has stated to you many times.   So your choosing to curse majority of Israelis (is that really what you did here originally?!) is a very serious and risky endeavor.  And wrong.

It is tiny minority groups like peace now and the Israeli elites and media machine which try to convince people like you that the majority agree to their way of thinking.   But that is not so.

I haven't seen polls yet on this case (will look them up), but something like 61% of Israelis are supposedly opposing a strike on Iran. We already know where most Israelis stand on each and every surrender/ethnic cleansing.

If that's not self-hatred, what is?

[muman613]

Chaim, and Rabbi Kahane both have stated that Israel should not accept more aide from America as it does make the Israeli leaders weaker, and they become puppets of the American administration.

It is a tough call though because that aide is used for some military hardware.

[muman613]

So Brennanfan...

What is your point? Do you give up on Israel? Why the defeatist attitude?

If it is so bad why are we even trying?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It makes me cry thinking that some discussions here on JTF might be appropriate on Nueta Karta websites. We should not hate the state of Israel. Indeed all is not ideal, all is quite upset, and it is looking kinda creepy. But it is the land of Israel, the Eretz Yisrael. While it is heart-wrenching to watch this sick drama going on in our lifetime we also should feel a bit privileged to be witnessing this.

It is our responsibility to do something to make sure that righteous Jews succeed in Israel. We all are quite shocked at how strong the evil side has grown, the erev rav who sit in the knesset plotting and planning the eviction of Jewish families from our G-d given heritage. Could any human being write a movie plot so convoluted and completely repulsive? This is the divine plan we are witnessing, awesomely heavy on our hearts and minds.

Don't we all awake in the morning and first thing, check the news in Israel, read the pro-Israel blogs and check our Email for relevant information regarding the Jewish peoples experience in today's world? I do this and as you would expect it causes me great stress and makes it hard to serve G-d with the joy I am expected to serve with. It is a double edged sword which is laying against our throats. But I always remember that a Jew should never despair, even when the sword is on our throat.

Hate is an emotion which only has good application in a few situations. In general, according to my understanding of Jewish thought, hate is a negative trait. It will lead a man to do things without much thought which he may have regrets for doing. As King Solomon says in Ecclesiastes there is a time for every thing under heaven. Thus we learn that there indeed must be a positive characteristic to the emotion of hatred.

Our hatred must make us stronger in our attempts to turn the situation around. Our hatred must make us look into ourselves, and evaluate ourselves, looking for ways to improve our ability to reach out and affect the people around us. Our hatred of our enemies must make us stronger in our desire to build up our defensive and offensive weaponry, in order to put down any attempt to kill the Jewish people in their land.

Israel appears quite messed up at this point. But let us not begin cursing Jews, even the marginally bad Jews, because we learn through the Talmud that every Jew, even the non-observant, has as many mitzvot {good deeds/commandments} as a pomegranate has seeds {which tradition says has 613 seeds approx}.

I feel very bad about this situation. I feel many of our members frustration at being unable to do much more than be internet warriors. But some of us do actually put our money where our heart and mind is. As Chaim has said during his AskJTF shows, this organization could use some more contributions. I admit that I have not given as much as I would like to have... And I will make a pledge that I will be giving to JTF soon... I suggest everyone who reads this who can sacrifice a few Dollars to do so as a Charitable Act which would qualify as a Mitzvah of Tzedakah for the upcoming Rosh Hashana holiday...

May our prayers be heard during this upcoming month of Elul...
May our members be strengthened in all their good middot, and against their evil inclination...
May we all be blessed with health, and long life...

Amen....

Muman, of course I don't want to sound like an NK member and I apologize if I did. But believe me, I am not just picking on marginally self-hating Jews. Lisa can tell you that I frequently curse evil Christians (i.e. "yimach shemo to the Copts") and others. I have a low tolerance for people who hate and oppress and murder good, honest, religious, Bible-believers period.

[muman613]

Brennanfan,

I fully understand why you are frustrated with the circumstances. It seems hopeless at times... So many Jews acting against their best interests. For what? So that the world will like them? It seems foolish, so foolish...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

So Brennanfan...

What is your point? Do you give up on Israel? Why the defeatist attitude?

If it is so bad why are we even trying?

I am not giving up on people who are genuinely torn and confused. But a lot of them are actually kapos, to one degree or another. To answer your other post, Israel would be able to produce all of her own heavy hardware. The Merkava tank is one of the best in the world, and do you remember the Lavi fighter plane that was killed right before it was about to go into production in 1986 on orders from the Reagan Administration?

[IsraelForever]

I haven't seen polls yet on this case (will look them up), but something like 61% of Israelis are supposedly opposing a strike on Iran. We already know where most Israelis stand on each and every surrender/ethnic cleansing.

If that's not self-hatred, what is?

I'm not a psychiatrist, but if 61% of Israeli's oppose a strike on Iran, then that, ipso facto, makes them self-hating Jews?  If you're right, that's a lot of self-hating Jews.  It couldn't be something else?  Like maybe they're not understanding the seriousness of that Iranian Hitler?  Like maybe the are self-loving Jews who simply are refusing to face the facts?  To be fair to these 61%, I'm just not seeing a definite connection between opposing a strike on Iran and self-hatred.  I have a feeling that you feel they must be self-haters because they want to be killed by Iran's nukes, and why would they want to be killed if they didn't hate themselves?  If I'm correct about your reasoning, then I propose that you look at it from a different angle and see other reasons than self-hatred.  Quite frankly, I see it more as stupidity than self-hatred.

[Zelhar]

Israel is: The collective name for the entire Jewish people. It is the name of their homeland. If you curse Israel you curse the entire Jewish people of all generations.

Of course the suffix el means G-d.  It's not necessarily desecration of G-d's name to replace "el" with "hell"( remember "temple bet-hell" ?). But definitely not appropriate to curse like that the entire Jewish people of all generations.

Until Brennanfan,  the only ones I saw who use the slander "Israhell" are muslims and nazis.

[Dr. Dan]

I don't fault you but the majority of Israelis support this treason. Shouldn't they be cursed?

No.  Gd will make the self correction.  The gentiles that acts upon it or prays for it will be cursed.  Bf, watch what you say.  It almost sounds like you justify the Romans destruction of the Jews because they were bad.  Nobody should want bad things to happen to our people.  Rather we prefer that they use free will to change for the better.

[Lisa]

BF,

Once again, I'm not disagreeing with the content of your posts.  If you want to curse individual Israelis who condemn what these girls did, then go ahead.  But I think it's a stretch to call *all* Israeli Jews self hating.  After all, I don't think you want our Israeli JTF'ers on the Hebrew forum to cursed.

[The One and Only Mo]

Yes, Brennanfan, I was referring to Chaim explaining that the U.S. gives too much aid to Israel which handcuffs them.

[The One and Only Mo]

KWR, I think you are misunderstanding Mo. Mo agrees with everything Chaim says. All he was arguing is what we all agree on--that Israel is far too slavishly tied to the United States and refuses to look out for its own interests. How would Chaim disagree with that?

spot on.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWR, I think you are misunderstanding Mo. Mo agrees with everything Chaim says.

Not true.


Mo is saying that Israel CANNOT disobey the US.  Even if the leaders wanted to.    That is definitely not what Chaim says.

Mo is saying that America gives a "ridiculous" amount of aid to Israel.  The exact opposite of what Chaim says. 
Read the quote again: 
"Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous."

Mo's point is, Israel has no choice but to obey the US because without us foreign aid, (now I'm editorializing) all Israelis would starve and america would nuke Israel if they misbehaved, or something.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yes, Brennanfan, I was referring to Chaim explaining that the U.S. gives too much aid to Israel which handcuffs them.

Mo, you told me that Israel is dependent on the US.    That's false.

You told me that Israel cannot disobey the US (for whatever reasons, but you highlighted the "ridiculous" amounts of foreign aid as the main reason).   That's false.   Israel has disobeyed in the past, and the world didn't end.

The words you used were "Israel is a puppet of the US."



I don't think you realize that you and Chaim do not see these issues the same way.

You are saying:  Israel cannot disobey the US, even if a prime minister wanted to.   He has no choice but to do what the US says because without the US we will not survive.  We're a "puppet."   And "You think Israel can just defy the U.S. whenever it wants?  "

Chaim is saying:   The current Israeli leaders are too afraid and too selfish to defy the US and do what is in the interest of the Jewish people because they don't have the proper Jewish values.   But a prime minister with those proper values could very well turn around and say "No" to the US demands and the world would go on, and Israel would prosper.     That is quite the opposite of what you are claiming.    You seem to be saying that if a leader came about and did that, Israel would starve or get nuked by America (or whatever it is you think would happen).

Chaim's opinion as he always expressed it was that if an Israeli leader wanted to, they could defy the US demands.   None of them want to.   Or at least don't want to enough to actually try it.  (it's possible bibi doesn't particularly like obama, but he still doesn't want to make waves)

[The One and Only Mo]

Not true.


Mo is saying that Israel CANNOT disobey the US.  Even if the leaders wanted to.    That is definitely not what Chaim says.

Mo is saying that America gives a "ridiculous" amount of aid to Israel.  The exact opposite of what Chaim says. 
Read the quote again: 
"Whatever the U.S. says, Israel has to do. U.S. contributes sooo much foreign aid to them that it's ridiculous."

Mo's point is, Israel has no choice but to obey the US because without us foreign aid, (now I'm editorializing) all Israelis would starve and america would nuke Israel if they misbehaved, or something.

I did NOT say that. I said that Israel has its hand tied mostly because of the foreign aid. I don't know where you got the other idea. It's not only that, but the entire world is always distorting Israel's actions. The media, for some reason, always portrays the Arabs as good guys and Israelis as bad guys. World opinion is a tremendous influence on Israel's actions.

[The One and Only Mo]

Mo, you told me that Israel is dependent on the US.    That's false.

You told me that Israel cannot disobey the US (for whatever reasons, but you highlighted the "ridiculous" amounts of foreign aid as the main reason).   That's false.   Israel has disobeyed in the past, and the world didn't end.

The words you used were "Israel is a puppet of the US."



I don't think you realize that you and Chaim do not see these issues the same way.

You are saying:  Israel cannot disobey the US, even if a prime minister wanted to.   He has no choice but to do what the US says because without the US we will not survive.  We're a "puppet."   And "You think Israel can just defy the U.S. whenever it wants?  "

Chaim is saying:   The current Israeli leaders are too afraid and too selfish to defy the US and do what is in the interest of the Jewish people because they don't have the proper Jewish values.   But a prime minister with those proper values could very well turn around and say "No" to the US demands and the world would go on, and Israel would prosper.     That is quite the opposite of what you are claiming.    You seem to be saying that if a leader came about and did that, Israel would starve or get nuked by America (or whatever it is you think would happen).

Chaim's opinion as he always expressed it was that if an Israeli leader wanted to, they could defy the US demands.   None of them want to.   Or at least don't want to enough to actually try it.  (it's possible bibi doesn't particularly like obama, but he still doesn't want to make waves)

You put words into my mouth again.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I did NOT say that. I said that Israel has its hand tied mostly because of the foreign aid. I don't know where you got the other idea. It's not only that, but the entire world is always distorting Israel's actions. The media, for some reason, always portrays the Arabs as good guys and Israelis as bad guys. World opinion is a tremendous influence on Israel's actions.

Do you believe:

1.   Israel has to be a puppet, because America gives them 3 billion in aid.   Israeli leaders have no choice but to obey whatever America says.

or

2.   Israel does not have to be a puppet, and the 3 billion is not worth the trouble, nor does it matter that much, but its leadership chooses to embrace the role of puppet anyway because they are twisted and perturbed.   But with better leaders this role could be rejected and a different one adopted.


Please choose 1 or 2.

[The One and Only Mo]

Do you believe:

1.   Israel has to be a puppet, because America gives them 3 billion in aid.   Israeli leaders have no choice but to obey whatever America says.

or

2.   Israel does not have to be a puppet, and the 3 billion is not worth the trouble, nor does it matter that much, but its leadership chooses to embrace the role of puppet anyway because they are twisted and perturbed.   But with better leaders this role could be rejected and a different one adopted.


Please choose 1 or 2.

Neither. You misinterpreted the word "puppet". The aid isn't that much of an issue, it's more about having to please the rest of the world and the repercussions on not doing so.

[The One and Only Mo]

Go to around 40 seconds to see where I'm coming from.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Neither. You misinterpreted the word "puppet". The aid isn't that much of an issue, it's more about having to please the rest of the world and the repercussions on not doing so.

Like I said, you are saying that Israel HAS to behave this way.   That it doesn't have a choice.  Chaim has said over and over again, that Israel does have a choice and it could choose to behave in its own interests and defy the world.    It chooses not to.   But it could if it wanted to.     (And a leader like Chaim would want to and would do it).
Fine, maybe you disagree with Chaim.   But to say you and him are saying the same thing is just purely incorrect.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And I did not put words in your mouth because you were the one who said Israel is just a puppet.    You now explain that that means pleasing the world, and if they don't they will face consequences which are too daunting to face (and therefore we MUST obey the world because those consequences are too scary).

I believe that is a bunch of hogwash and there is really nothing much the world could do about it if a country (including the country known as israel) chooses to defy it or go in a different direction.

[The One and Only Mo]

I haven's said I agreed with him or disagreed with him. I've showed that it's not a choice Israel can make. It's like me choosing to shoot somebody. Of course I COULD shoot somebody, but doing that will lead to punishment. Similarly, Israel CAN do whatever it wants, but it will be punished. Whether or not the punishment is severe is up for discussion, but they don't want to deal with the universal backlash. Since when did I say anything about Chaim?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Go to around 40 seconds to see where I'm coming from.

So in other words you buy into the facade that Big Bad America and Big Brother Obama will whip bibi with a stick and "do something" to Israel if bibi does something about the arabs.     And that these consequences are so bad that we should never dare confront such a scenario.

I believe that's a crock and the ones who promote that lie the most are the Israeli govt so that they can excuse their own misdeeds and blame it on america.     
If they would do what's right for the Jewish people instead, America will protest and shout, and then the anger will fade away.  Just like
every time in history that Israel has defied America for Israel's own self-interest
It is the arabs who also promote this lie that Israel is a puppet because they are eternally shamed for being defeated by us in war and they cannot face this embarrassment, so they need to excuse it.   It also plays into their narrative that Jews aren't indigenous to EY but are foreign implants.      Regardless of that, the basic premise is simply untrue.    Some of Israel's leaders behave as puppets due to their fear or selfish motives.   But that doesn't mean Israel is or has to be a puppet state.