Israel's Chief Rabbi Blasts Geert Wilder in Shechita Letter

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/159419#.UD5AwNZlQeI

[Meerkat]

Yes there are aspects of our religion Wilders disagrees with, but im pretty confident that he would never screw with our right to be sovereign in our own land. He held the same pro-israel positions since day 1 of his political career through thick and thin.

im sure there are parts of hinduism you disagree with, yet you still think that this world would be much better if sh*tstan was reclaimed by India.

[muman613]

The problem is Islam, not Circumcision, not Kashrut, not wearing Kippahs.... That Islam has similar customs is unfortunate, but to attack the observance of these commandments is a real travesty of justice. I always had reservations about mr wilders while many here jumped on his band-wagon. As a result of his attack on the covenant I must stand against mr geert...

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

Yes there are aspects of our religion Wilders disagrees with, but im pretty confident that he would never screw with our right to be sovereign in our own land.

Exactly. He doesn't want to claim the whole world. Holland is only  like 0.0279% of the worlds inhabited land area. I would be fine with Israel banning Christianity. My concern would be for Holland. They need to rethink discouraging people that are actually good for their country from living there.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I am going to try to stay out of this as much as I can. Is Geert really saying that Jews in particular must not practice circumcision, or does he mean that Muslims shouldn't be able to? If the latter, which I suspect, unfortunately the way Western laws are you cannot make them apply to only one religion. Muslims vastly outnumber Jews in Holland anyway, and shouldn't Dutch Jews make aliyah instead of staying in Holland?

[muman613]

I am going to try to stay out of this as much as I can. Is Geert really saying that Jews in particular must not practice circumcision, or does he mean that Muslims shouldn't be able to? If the latter, which I suspect, unfortunately the way Western laws are you cannot make them apply to only one religion. Muslims vastly outnumber Jews in Holland anyway, and shouldn't Dutch Jews make aliyah instead of staying in Holland?

Yes, that would be the argument {by some}. But it is another example of the nations mistreating the Jewish people in exile. Maybe the Dutch should round up all the Jews and give them one-way-tickets to Israel...

[Meerkat]

I am going to try to stay out of this as much as I can. Is Geert really saying that Jews in particular must not practice circumcision, or does he mean that Muslims shouldn't be able to? If the latter, which I suspect, unfortunately the way Western laws are you cannot make them apply to only one religion. Muslims vastly outnumber Jews in Holland anyway, and shouldn't Dutch Jews make aliyah instead of staying in Holland?

exactly

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

exactly

 Well where do you live?
 
 If not in Israel perhaps you should pack your bags and just leave? If you say this then lead by example. Either way not everyone just gets up and leaves. Also what would happen if their is no Israel? That is also a possibility. (thats besides the point). The facts are that their are Jews living there. They have a right to live in Holland. True, they should be encouraged and welcomed into Israel, but facts also are that they live in that country, speak its language, make a living etc. Not everyone is going to just drop everything and leave. Also perhaps they want to gradually leave (as is encouraged by many great Rabbis today who say to come with a plan and prepared, like career and housing planned etc. etc.) As a whole that would be better then coming and relying on gov. handouts. While they gradually go back to Israel what they should not perform the Mitzwoth including circumcising their baby boys. This is the covenant between G-D and Israel and is 1 of 2 positive Mitzwoth where the punishment is Karet (which is the most severe in the Torah) The other is Korban Pessah and we are physically prohibited from performing it. Also the reward for the Brit is a share in the land of Israel. (That explains why secular Jews have it, also why even Arabs controlled it for 1,300 years, but thats a different topic- b/c Ishmael was 13 when circumcised etc.)
 
 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also I will add 1 example, perhaps we will see how you answer it.
 When Chaim will be married B"H and his wife gives birth to a son. On the 8th day he is required to perform a Brit Milah (under normal circumstances when he is healthy). Let's say America bans circumcision will you just tell him, well too bad. He isn't currently allowed into Israel, and America bans it. What will you do in this case? Say, well the Muslims are doing it soo we want them to leave?

  - anyway I will tell you this, at the places where this was banned (like in the U.S.S.R.) people still did this and people will still do this. Jews and Muslims alike. It is just bad will and then an excuse for trouble etc. Also perhaps some who know very little will just stop doing it (like also happened with some Russian Jews). Not everyone will just get up and leave. Of-course their will be some, but still.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

This is kind of off topic, but what exactly does the yimach shemo vezichro curse mean? It means more than just wishing for the name and memory of the person or country being cursed to be obliterated, doesn't it?

[Meerkat]

Well where do you live?
 
 If not in Israel perhaps you should pack your bags and just leave? If you say this then lead by example. Either way not everyone just gets up and leaves. Also what would happen if their is no Israel? That is also a possibility. (thats besides the point). The facts are that their are Jews living there. They have a right to live in Holland. True, they should be encouraged and welcomed into Israel, but facts also are that they live in that country, speak its language, make a living etc. Not everyone is going to just drop everything and leave. Also perhaps they want to gradually leave (as is encouraged by many great Rabbis today who say to come with a plan and prepared, like career and housing planned etc. etc.) As a whole that would be better then coming and relying on gov. handouts. While they gradually go back to Israel what they should not perform the Mitzwoth including circumcising their baby boys. This is the covenant between G-D and Israel and is 1 of 2 positive Mitzwoth where the punishment is Karet (which is the most severe in the Torah) The other is Korban Pessah and we are physically prohibited from performing it. Also the reward for the Brit is a share in the land of Israel. (That explains why secular Jews have it, also why even Arabs controlled it for 1,300 years, but thats a different topic- b/c Ishmael was 13 when circumcised etc.)
 

I have a plane ticket right here right now set for September 15th, thanks very much. There you go, i'm leading by example. To the Jews who read this: make aliyah, Israel is our only homeland. not the US, not Holland, not Canada, not Australia, not anywhere else.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I have a plane ticket right here right now set for September 15th, thanks very much. There you go, i'm leading by example. To the Jews who read this: make aliyah, Israel is our only homeland. not the US, not Holland, not Canada, not Australia, not anywhere else.

 Very nice to hear. And great way to lead and encourage as well. I commend you.
 
 - at the same time everything else I said as well is true as well. Not everyone just leaves. I am sure it took you some time to plan ahead which is the smart and beneficial thing to do. Both for you and for society as a whole. Also for you to go and then not go back. 

[briann]

Geert has always been extremely pro-Israel.   He spent quite a bit of time there growing up as well.   I think there is a miss-communication here.

[muman613]

This is kind of off topic, but what exactly does the yimach shemo vezichro curse mean? It means more than just wishing for the name and memory of the person or country being cursed to be obliterated, doesn't it?

Yes, it means 'May the memory of the name be erased"...

It harkens to a Biblical commandment which we are to remember every year. We are commanded to Erase the memory of Amalek from the world. Thus anyone we curse like this is comparable to Amalek.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/704644/jewish/Remember-What-Amalek-Did-to-You.htm

http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/dimension/archives/tezaveh59.htm

Although the nation of Amalek has long ago disappeared, their impact still remains. It may be impossible to physically erase them from the earth, but we can still remember.

Mitzva 189: "We are commanded to remember what Amalek did to us, first to cause us harm. To hate him constantly, at all times. To arouse the souls, with words, to do battle with him. To encourage the nation to hate him, so that the Mitzva not be forgotten, so that hatred of him not be weakened, or lost from the soul, with the passage of time....." (Rambam, Sefer HaMitzvos)

The Rambam is teaching an important lesson. Not only are we required to destroy Amalek, and remove all trace of their name. Remembering their evil is an integral part of this command. This is how Klal Yisrael goes to war.

It is for this reason that we gather in public to read aloud of their vicious attack, commiting ourselves to the battle ahead, vowing to remove all trace of Amalek.

Let us begin with our own hearts.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Shechita is not circumcision, it is the Jewish ritual slaughter of animals to make kosher meat.  If Geert Wilders supports this ban, along with the suggestion to ban all kosher meat from being imported to Holland, then he's essentially saying that Jews can't eat meat in the Netherlands.  And since kosher slaughter is completely humane, this is being done for no good reason, as is the case with all anti-Semitic actions.  Although this effectively might be good for Jews in the political sense because it might make them want to move to Israel, it is an anti-Semitic position for someone to take, and I believe it would lead to punishment.  This is happening all over Europe now, where people are trying to get rid of Jews by banning certain aspects of their religion, such as circumcision in Germany and Denmark. This is also a reflection of the fact that unless someone is a true G-d-fearing person, they will ultimately be an enemy of the Jews no matter how much they claim to support Israel, it's just a matter of time until they show it.  This is also the case with atheist Jews who claim to be Zionists.

Not doubting you but are you sure that the intent of the ban isn't to ban halal slaughter?

[Meerkat]

Not doubting you but are you sure that the intent of the ban isn't to ban halal slaughter?

the intent is to ban halal, but because of 1st amendment issues (and equivalent provisions in other countries), its not possible to ban halal without banning shechita.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Could be but that wouldn't make sense because first, halal is not humane slaughter, and second, if halal slaughter is the target then there would be no reason to ban imported kosher meat, as was proposed by a member of Geert's party, because no slaughering would be taking place in Holland.

I hate to say it but maybe you are right that all along he was a WN in sheep's clothing. I'd observe him for just a teensy tad longer, though, before concluding that.

[Sveta]

And how does Geert Wilders suggest animals get killed for meat? How do Gentiles kill animals that is much more "humane" than the actual method less pain method that Hashem commanded. They use hammers and stun guns shot directly into the animal's forehead, which enters the head and destroys the brain. Yes that is completely peaceful. Is Geert a vegetarian or a meat eating hypocrite?

[Meerkat]

And how does Geert Wilders suggest animals get killed for meat? How do Gentiles kill animals that is much more "humane" than the actual method less pain method that Hashem commanded. They use hammers and stun guns shot directly into the animal's forehead, which enters the head and destroys the brain. Yes that is completely peaceful. Is Geert a vegetarian or a meat eating hypocrite?

the vast majority of the brutality, in both jewish and gentile methods of slaughter happens in the animal's life cycle itself, never seeing sunlight and being pumped with hormones and stuff.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

Geert want may want to ban imported kosher meat because Muslims are permitted to eat kosher meat.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Geert want may want to ban imported kosher meat because Muslims are permitted to eat kosher meat.

 
 Soo? Is he going to ban vegetables as well because Muslims are permitted to eat vegetables as well. If they have a problem with Islam why don't they directly address it instead of doing these roundabout ways.  This is like the Crusades; West Vs. Islam and both against the Jews and making the Jews the casualties as usual.

[muman613]

Geert want may want to ban imported kosher meat because Muslims are permitted to eat kosher meat.

So are Jews...


I can imagine the upset if they happened to ban Christmas Trees because muslims also have trees in their yards...