Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on October 28, 2012, 07:30:34 PM ---KWRBT,
You constantly seem to be trying to prove something here. I have brought both sides of the argument, and you are trying to 'prove me wrong'? This is the kind of behavior that I do not expect from a Jew. I have been completely honest with you, I have given you credit when you make good points, and I continue to treat you as an ally. But you seem to see me as a threat to your self esteem, as everything I say is a point for you to disprove.
You may get enjoyment out of this little game, but I think it is foolish.
I have brought Rambam when Rambam expresses the idea I am trying to convey, but unlike you and Tag, I don't consider Rambam to be the ONLY authority on Jewish law or thought. He is greatly respected, and as I point out, Chabad studies Rambam just like most other religious Jews. But one should really learn more than just Rambam.
You try to say that I am stating something wrong, yet you do not clearly say what it is you think is wrong with what I say. My defense of Jews who may be misunderstood is something for you to disrespect me for? I take very literally the concept of giving a Jew the benefit of the doubt, and not speaking derogatorily about Jews before non-Jews but it seems you scoff at these ideas. I take very dear the idea of Ahavat Yisrael and feel very sad that you have consistently seen me as an opponent, or someone to try to insult. It is sad that this seems to be the case, and it is fine with me, because this is another challenge in its own right.
If I could impart to you these concepts I would be satisfied. You do not need to agree with what I say, nor do you have to be happy with what I say, but you could attempt to communicate your feelings in a way which moves the discussion forward instead of concentrating on the disagreement.
Regarding the original topic I have clearly stated my position. I accept the Talmud, and a variety of lessons learned from the Talmud. I learn from many Rabbis, and attempt to reconcile any differences by accepting that each has its own truth. This is one lesson that the Talmud teaches, that there can be differences of opinion {look at Hillel and Shammai} and yet both can be true.
--- End quote ---
Wut?
I seriously think you are reading things into my post which are not there. My whole point was that I was not proving you wrong and there is no way to do so. Note my use of quotation marks.
You stated something about the concept of miracles in a way as if its incontrovertible fact that they are as you describe them. I'm merely pointing out that the nature of miracles in the Torah is a basic machloketh rishonim. They all bring points to support their own views which are all plausible. This is hashkafa, different opinions are valid, and bringing up hillel and shammai and deciding halacha lemaaseh in this context really has no bearing.
And of course it goes without saying that your accusations (that I'm playing games, I'm snickering, and so on) are totally off base and inane. Why do you bother with these personal attacks?
muman613:
KWRBT,
I don't want to go on and on about this. I think we agree for the most part.
I'll accept that you really don't intend to do any of the things which I have perceived as being 'personal'. And please understand that I do not intend to say anything which is insulting to you.
I often post things which are not entirely on the topic. But I post them in the hopes of clarifying what I tried to say.
Anyway, thank you for this response, and lets move on..
Ephraim Ben Noach:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on October 21, 2012, 06:12:01 PM ---
Soo do I, but people can very well twist these things for their own purposes. I have heard these "stories" from different groups as well all claiming that their version and their religion is true etc.
My point is that not to follow someone blindly even if they have a great story (supposedly). We need to use our Sehel
--- End quote ---
Although I believe that Judaism is the most righteous path. Do you ever wonder if G-d shows himself through the persons own personal beliefs? This is one of my problems with Christianity, If a righteous Hindu doesn't know who Jesus is, is he going to hell? If a good righteous Buddhist, does not realize that G-d is one, is his soul cut off from the promise land?
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: Ephraim on October 30, 2012, 09:47:15 PM --- Although I believe that Judaism is the most righteous path. Do you ever wonder if G-d shows himself through the persons own personal beliefs? This is one of my problems with Christianity, If a righteous Hindu doesn't know who Jesus is, is he going to hell? If a good righteous Buddhist, does not realize that G-d is one, is his soul cut off from the promise land?
--- End quote ---
I dont know exactly. But the sages (Jewish sages) at least do show tolerance and even understanding towards even idolaters especially outside and far from the land of Israel. This is why they were allowed to come to the Holy Temple and even offer their sacrifice to G-D even though they also believed in other things and "gods".
Also Eliezer is sent to get a wife for Yitzhak to (modern day Iraq) even though they were idolaters, yett it is told that their behavior was better and midot (ways/manners etc.) even though they were idol worshipers. At the time better then the one's in Canaan.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
I'm no expert on this, but from what it seems- even though the Torah is extremely against idolatry and even many of the commandments and ways are to completely nullify such belief from the Jewish people (who were steeped in idolatry by being in Egypt under foreign rule which promoted it) their is a sense of tolerance and understanding by the Jewish sages that those born in certain cultures and locations do these things since they do not know any better and that is the society they live in- People are many times products of their society.
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