The Disputation - Nachmanides Debates Before King James.....

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

5 parts (follow the links)
 Woow, soo much great authentic ideas found. I hope Jews hear this and learn what the Moshiah and his role is.
 

[muman613]

I am checking this one out...

There were other Disputations also,

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111868/jewish/Rabbi-Jehiel-of-Paris.htm

The position of the Yeshivah was particularly difficult because of the frequent attacks against the Talmud by the enemies of the Jews, and by various libels against the Jews themselves.

In the year 5000 (1240) king Ludwig IX of France ordered a religious disputation between representatives of the Christian and Jewish religions on the subject of the Talmud. Rabbi Jehiel headed the Jewish delegation which defended the Talmud against the attacks of the apostate Nicholas Donin who was the chief spokesman for the Christian theologists. Rabbi Jehiel answered every accusation made by the apostate, and proved them to be utterly without foundation Both the king and queen and all the notables who were present at this disputation, were greatly impressed by the wisdom of Rabbi Jehiel. But so intense was the hatred of the Jews in those days, that the decree was passed to burn all available manuscripts of the Talmud publicly, an act of vandalism which was repeated only by the Hitlerites of our time. On Friday, erev-Shabbos Chukkath, in the year 5004 (June 17, 1244), 24 carloads of Talmudic manuscripts were publicly burnt in Paris.

For many years Rabbi Jehiel continued to teach the Talmud at his academy in Paris. He wrote "Tosafoth" and served as the leading authority on the Talmud. His decisions on various points of Jewish law were recorded by his disciple Maharani of Rothenburg, and also by the celebrated codifier, Rabbi Mordecai ben Hillel, and others.

[muman613]

Are you sure this is Kosher? The poster is named 'YeshuaYehovah' which sounds a little Christian to me..
.

[muman613]

I just finished watching it.... It is very good. And it seems to indicate the king was sympathetic to the Jews...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I just finished watching it.... It is very good. And it seems to indicate the king was sympathetic to the Jews...

 No, he was fair. That is the point. But the greater point is the ideas espoused by the RambaN that is much more important for us to take out (for example what and who the Messiah is and his role). That is what I wanted to share with you here.  Also we many times hear of its supposedly only the RambaM  being the rationalist and the one who describes a purely "human" and down to earth Messiah. Here we have an example of the RambaN saying the same views which brings further proof that the Moshiah is literally the "anointed" King (as was King David and others) and not some miracle worker dropping from the sky or anything like that.

 The RambaN here says not to take everything literally and explains many of the aggadic statements an what they mean and their role etc. And by the way the RambaN is many times regarded as the other side of the RambaM. Soo we see the spectrum of Jewish thought of great Jewish sages and their true thoughts of the Moshiah and what will come.

[Zelhar]

I think today you can't find  any great rabbi, at least not a Charedi one, who will openly admit what the Ramban had openly said about what is valid and what is just a parable, what is open to question and what is binding truth.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Zelhar-
Actually at least I know Rav Bar-Hayim does.

Understanding Aggadoth - the Legends of the Gemarah

   Aggadoth are lessons of the Sages that do not pertain to Jewish law. It's not possible to apply one rule to understand every aggadah. Each must be understood in its

machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/43-philosophy/506-understanding-aggadoth-the-legends-of-the-gemara

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

As does Rabbi Slifkin in his books and in his blogg RationalistJudaism.com (and book "Sacred Monsters")
http://books.google.com/books?id=_1fdxxS26RYC&pg=PA253&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Zelhar]

Zelhar-
Actually at least I know Rav Bar-Hayim does.

Understanding Aggadoth - the Legends of the Gemarah

   Aggadoth are lessons of the Sages that do not pertain to Jewish law. It's not possible to apply one rule to understand every aggadah. Each must be understood in its

machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/43-philosophy/506-understanding-aggadoth-the-legends-of-the-gemara

I think Rav Bar Haim is a Yemenite rambamist isn't he ? They have very little influence in the Torah world. Quite unfortunately in my opinion but this is how it is. The highest authority lies in the hands of the Charedi liitvak rabbis, and the most prestigious yeshivas are theirs.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I think Rav Bar Haim is a Yemenite rambamist isn't he ? They have very little influence in the Torah world. Quite unfortunately in my opinion but this is how it is. The highest authority lies in the hands of the Charedi liitvak rabbis, and the most prestigious yeshivas are theirs.

 No. Not Yemenite and NOT a "Rambamist".
   Influence not sure, not in the traditional sense, but definitely is making some impacts now throughout the Jewish world.

[muman613]

I don't think what Ramban said was revolutionary. I don't know who it is who teaches that Moshiach will be a divine being {except for Christianity}. And concerning the Medrashim which are discussed in the Talmud, as we all know that there is debate between the Rabbis of the Talmud, and we {at least I was taught} have to take from each Rabbi the wisdom which was intended. This wisdom is not always literal, but it is true on some level, and through our understanding we can discover what this wisdom is.

This is why it can be said that Moshiach has already been born, and yet we do not see him today.

The Ramban, in this movie, does say that things will change in the Messianic age. I do believe that things will be quite different, not through physical miracles, but through a basic change of heart of the Jewish people. This change of heart is miraculous, considering how difficult it is to get Jews to agree on anything, and this change will be what indicates that Moshiach is here.

Rambam in this movie says that the era of peace itself will be the sign that Moshiach has come, that when we 'beat sword into plowshare' this will be the sign that Moshiach has come. Mankind has not been peaceful since we were placed into Gan Eden, with one fight leading to another leading to all out war. When the Jews are able to bring about the understanding that Hashem is the ONE G-d who has love for his creations, can the Moshiachs mission begin. I think it will take both our effort, and strength given from above, to achieve these changes.

[muman613]

Another issue concerning the nature of the final redemption...

It is also related that the final redemption will be similar to the redemption of the Jewish people from Egypt. What does this mean? Does it mean that Hashem will permit the Moshiach to bring plagues on the nations? Does it mean that we will again witness something akin to the splitting of the sea?

Some think this is so... And there is reason to consider it...

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/calendar?holiday=pesach104218

The First and Final Redemption

The last day of Passover, known as Acharon Shel Pesach, concludes the theme of liberation and redemption from exile. While the first night of Passover commemorates the redemption from exile in Egypt, the final day celebrates the future Redemption, which G-d will bring about through Moshiach. [ 1 ]

The connection between the first and the last redemptions is also gleaned from the verse: [ 2 ] "As in the days when you left Egypt, I shall show you wonders [during the final Redemption]."

Our Rabbis ask: [ 3 ] Why does the verse say "As in the days when you left Egypt," when the Exodus took place on one day, as the verse states: [ 4 ] "Remember this day on which you left Egypt."

On the day the Jewish slaves left Egypt they achieved the status of free people. [ 5 ] This transition, however, is an ongoing experience that requires constant meditation on the concepts of slavery and freedom. A person's ruminations must have a salutary effect on his daily conduct.

This is why spiritual redemption from all straits and limitations that constitute spiritual Egyptian exile is an ongoing process, notwithstanding the fact that the Jews' physical Exodus took only one day.

This is expressed by our Sages when they state: [ 6 ] "In each and every generation and on each and every day, every man is obligated to see himself as if he had gone out from Egypt on that very day." Man's viewing the Exodus from Egypt as a continuous process will lead to daily improvement in conduct as well - as befits a free man.

Both the first and the final redemption involve the liberation of all the Jewish people. Just as the Exodus encompassed the entire nation and resulted from the Jews' collective service, so will the future Redemption liberate all Jews from exile, and it too will result from our collective efforts.

This collective liberation and effort came about during the Exodus as a result of the effort of each Jew, who first liberated himself from his own spiritual exile. And so with the final liberation: the efforts of each and every Jew in redeeming himself from spiritual exile will result in the collective redemption of all Jews from the final exile.

In practical terms, the lesson from the above is that each and every Jew is entrusted by G-d with a unique mission that he, and only he, is capable of accomplishing. He cannot rely on someone else to fulfill that mission for him, for the other individual is entrusted with his own mission.

On the other hand, each person must also realize that he is part of a collective - the Jewish nation. His mission is thus of vital importance not only to himself but to all the Jewish people. Fulfilling his mission as an individual thus helps the Jewish people fulfill their mission as a collective whole. Ultimately, each Jew's personal redemption from spiritual exile leads to the collective redemption of all Jews from the final exile.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman- before reading what you posted (last) you hould know that their are many sources saying the redemption will be like the one in Purim. "Hidden miracles". This is said both in Bavli and Yerushalmi sources.

[muman613]

Muman- before reading what you posted (last) you hould know that their are many sources saying the redemption will be like the one in Purim. "Hidden miracles". This is said both in Bavli and Yerushalmi sources.

Let me find these quotes... But this is still fine... I believe that a lot of things are miraculous, and it doesn't bother me that it will be like Purim... Purim is a great day, like Yom Kippur...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think Rav Bar Haim is a Yemenite rambamist isn't he ? They have very little influence in the Torah world. Quite unfortunately in my opinion but this is how it is. The highest authority lies in the hands of the Charedi liitvak rabbis, and the most prestigious yeshivas are theirs.

He is not a "rambamist" although he generally paskens in line with Rambam on the majority of issues.  He is also not yemenite, but he studied as a close talmid under Rav Kapach for many years so there will be things in common between him and the Yemenites.

However you are mostly correct that he doesn't have that much influence on the Torah world (really, the haredi world) since he is seen mainly as a religious zionist Rav (although he is not firmly of that "camp" either since he feels they have strayed from the approach of Rav Kook (the father) ).  He studied in Mercaz Harav for 15 years.  But I noticed that there is a collection of haredim in addition to religious zionists who are attending his shiurim.  Usually these were people who think somewhat differently than the society around them and that was how they were drawn to Rav Bar Hayim's Torah.   This is what I gathered from attending his shiur myself.

I tend to believe his way of thinking will spread to more people and more rabbis as the haredi society evolves and deals with certain emerging issues.

[muman613]

Tag,

You are correct that there is a connection between Purim and the final redemption.


http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2001/moadim/rwil_hallel.html

The Hallel of Purim, Pesach, and the Final Redemption

The Medrash teaches us that the Shiras Hayam is similar to the Hallel we will all sing when the final redemption comes. May we be privileged to join in that great song- bimhera beyameinu - Amen.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/sichos-in-english/12/21.htm
Through the proper preparation to Purim as discussed above, may you (together with your parents, teachers and counselors) merit to celebrate Purim with the greatest of joy. Then the entire year will be one of “light and joy, gladness and honor,” illuminated with the light of Torah and mitzvos. Then from the redemption of Purim we go to the redemption of Pesach, including the final redemption, as our Sages have said “In Nissan they were redeemed and in Nissan they are destined to be redeemed in the future” — the true and complete redemption through our righteous Mashiach, when “like the days of your going out from Egypt I will show you wonders.”

http://www.torah.org/features/holydays/darkhour.html

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There is also an interesting history surrounding this disputation.  Apparently there was a Christian or apostate Jewish writer who afterwards did a writeup of the debate and made the Ramban look very bad not accurately conveying his responses and omitting certain things, but another source came from the Jewish side which gave his full responses and he comes out looking a lot better and probably even won the debate, even with odds stacked against him pretty unfairly.

[muman613]

There is also an interesting history surrounding this disputation.  Apparently there was a Christian or apostate Jewish writer who afterwards did a writeup of the debate and made the Ramban look very bad not accurately conveying his responses and omitting certain things, but another source came from the Jewish side which gave his full responses and he comes out looking a lot better and probably even won the debate, even with odds stacked against him pretty unfairly.

I believe the movie alludes to this.... It was said that the Christians would publish a book which contained their twisted view of what was said. While Ramban published what he actually said, and he discussed this with the King in the final scene..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I believe the movie alludes to this.... It was said that the Christians would publish a book which contained their twisted view of what was said. While Ramban published what he actually said, and he discussed this with the King in the final scene..

Oh interesting.  I'm gonna check out the video when I get internet back on my computer.

[muman613]

Oh interesting.  I'm gonna check out the video when I get internet back on my computer.

May it be soon... Baruch Hashem you weathered the storm... Just spoke to my step-dad and B'H they did not see any danger...

[Nachus]

 


 Excellent video and classicly well acted by Christopher Lee and Co.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Great movie! I liked how Ramban said Jesus never said he was G-d, and his explanation of the Son of G-d!

[Zelhar]

I am certain the Ramban left us a true and honest account of the debate. Last evening I actually read his account of the disputation in Hebrew. The movie is pretty much in line with the text.

There are also Hebrew accounts from the Paris debate from the same era, and from the Tortosa debate which took place 150 years late also in Aragon but in a much less tolerant environment. And in these accounts it is obvious that the Jews were merely trying to get out of the whole thing in one piece. They were mainly trying to appease the Christians so they will leave them and the talmud alone (unsuccessfully). The Ramban, on the other hand, had a unique opportunity to speak the truth without fear and he took it.

[Sveta]

Wow, I'm glad I found this in the old posts. I am so happy I found the movie here! I love it, minus the one who posted it on youtube. 
What a great movie.