Woman refused abortion in Ireland, dies

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

BANGALORE/BELGAUM/ LONDON: A 31-year-old Indian dentist died recently in Ireland from complications following the hospital's refusal to conduct an abortion to save her life. Her death has triggered calls for a review of the Catholic nation's near complete ban on termination of pregnancy, even on medical grounds.

Karnataka-born Savita Halappanavar died on October 28, three days after she was admitted to the university hospital, Galaway, for treatment of a messy 17-week pregnancy that had left her in agony. But the doctors repeatedly rejected her pleas for an abortion, citing Ireland's orthodox ban, leading to a worsening of her condition even when it was clear that the baby could not be saved. Savita died of septicemia.

According to British newspapers, an Irish deputy , Patrick Nulty, said Halappanavar's death points at the "pressing and urgent need" for parliament to "show responsibility and legislate" , calling on his party to press for reforming the abortion law.

I am neither catholic nor Irish, she said before dying

The newspapers also said that the Halappanavar's family is considering legal action , arguing that the fetus should have been removed earlier to save the woman's life.

Irish authorities have launched a probe into her death. Her husband, Praveen, an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, is flying back to Ireland. Within hours of Savita's hospitalization on October 21, doctors determined that she was miscarrying, Praveen said. Over the next three days, they refused requests for a termination of her fetus to ease her surging pain and fading health. The dead fetus was later removed and Savita was taken to the high dependency unit and then to the intensive care unit, where she died of septicemia on October 28.

"Savita was really in agony . She was very upset, but she accepted she was losing the baby ," he told the Irish paper in a telephone interview from Belgaum . "When the consultant came on the ward rounds on Monday morning, Savita said if they could not save the baby, could they induce an end to the pregnancy. The consultant said: 'As long as there is a fetal heartbeat, we can't do anything'." "Again on Tuesday morning..., the consultant said it was the law, that this is a Catholic country. Savita said: 'I am neither Irish nor Catholic' , but they said there was nothing they could do," Praveen was quoted as saying. He said his wife vomited repeatedly and collapsed in a restroom that night, but doctors wouldn't terminate the fetus because its heart was still beating.

The fetus died the following day and its remains were surgically removed. Within hours, Praveen said, his wife was placed under sedation in intensive care with systemic blood poisoning and he was never able to speak with her again. By Saturday, her heart, kidneys and liver had stopped working and she was pronounced dead early on October 28.

Praveen told TOI he is getting frequent updates from his friends in Ireland. "The PM has given an assurance to get the matter investigated by an independent agency.''

Times View

The debate in the Western world on abortion is often portrayed as one between the 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' camps. As this case should illustrate to those who view an anti-abortion position as pro-life, that can often be a dangerously misplaced notion. In this specific case, it appears clear that the yet-to-be-born child's life was doomed whether or not an abortion had taken place. The mother's life, on the other hand, could have been saved had the abortion been done. The ban on abortion therefore ended up taking a life that need not have been lost. How does that square with viewing the ban as pro-life?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Indian-woman-refused-abortion-in-Ireland-dies/articleshow/17222804.cms

[muman613]

At the risk of offending people I must say it is completely ridiculous to hold the life of the fetus as more important than the life of the mother. That is fanatical and is certainly not what G-d wants from humanity. Pro-life means doing everything we can to prevent the needless termination of fetal life. It does not mean sacrificing the mothers life. Jewish law has always been clear on this issue {as far as I understand}. Jewish law has always held that abortion is murder unless the mothers life is in danger. If the mothers life is in danger, then the mothers life comes before the unborn child. This makes the most sense, and should be the position of all sane humans.

I don't know what happened there in Ireland. But if it is truly as that article portrays, that this is because Ireland is a Catholic state, then there should definitely some soul searching going on by the government.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I am not fazed. Now seriously, how commonly does this happen? Maybe twice a year worldwide?

We have no way of knowing whether or not this woman truly died because she did not get an abortion. The very last thing I will ever believe is anything that the pro-baby-genocide NWO Nazi media tells me about what happened in this or any similar case.

How many women die worldwide each year from legal abortions? It is likely a staggering number, but we will never hear it.

[muman613]

I am not fazed. Now seriously, how commonly does this happen? Maybe twice a year worldwide?

We have no way of knowing whether or not this woman truly died because she did not get an abortion. The very last thing I will ever believe is anything that the pro-baby-genocide NWO Nazi media tells me about what happened in this or any similar case.

How many women die worldwide each year from legal abortions? It is likely a staggering number, but we will never hear it.

Question: Do you think that in a question of a mothers life or a fetuses life, that the mothers life comes first?

As I said we are only looking at this story from one perspective, and as you point out it could be biased... But the question still remains. I only question whether this was an issue of refusing the termination because of religious law. As I also stated Jewish law forbids abortion except in cases like these...

The real question is whether removal of the fetus would have saved the womans life.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Question: Do you think that in a question of a mothers life or a fetuses life, that the mothers life comes first?

As I said we are only looking at this story from one perspective, and as you point out it could be biased... But the question still remains. I only question whether this was an issue of refusing the termination because of religious law. As I also stated Jewish law forbids abortion except in cases like these...

I think we are hearing extremely untrustworthy reports, Muman. Not counting ectopic pregnancies it is extremely rare in modern medicine for a pregnancy to be 100% fatal to a woman without an abortion. I refrain from making a judgment on this case.

[muman613]

I think we are hearing extremely untrustworthy reports, Muman. Not counting ectopic pregnancies it is extremely rare in modern medicine for a pregnancy to be 100% fatal to a woman without an abortion. I refrain from making a judgment on this case.

Ok...

BTW, did you get my PM about your signature and profile images? They still do not appear in my browser...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Yes, thank you very much. I can't do anything about them for a while though.

[Rubystars]

At the risk of offending people I must say it is completely ridiculous to hold the life of the fetus as more important than the life of the mother. That is fanatical and is certainly not what G-d wants from humanity. Pro-life means doing everything we can to prevent the needless termination of fetal life. It does not mean sacrificing the mothers life. Jewish law has always been clear on this issue {as far as I understand}. Jewish law has always held that abortion is murder unless the mothers life is in danger. If the mothers life is in danger, then the mothers life comes before the unborn child. This makes the most sense, and should be the position of all sane humans.

I agree with you. I've never met any pro-lifer who wouldn't agree with abortion if it's necessary to save the mother's life. It's still sad but in this case the mother's life should have been given priority.

I think we are hearing extremely untrustworthy reports, Muman. Not counting ectopic pregnancies it is extremely rare in modern medicine for a pregnancy to be 100% fatal to a woman without an abortion. I refrain from making a judgment on this case.

I was wondering if maybe it wasn't some kind of ectopic pregnancy that killed her. The article doesn't really seem to say.

[syyuge]

Had there been the Jewish law in Ireland, there were 99% chances that the mother would have survived.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

It is stuff like these that makes the average American not vote for the political right.

Let this case, be a wakeup call to everybody in Ireland, at least they will abolish such laws and save lives of thousands of women. But I am also afraid that the liberals will use this case to their benefit. Ireland needs a right wing party, that will prevent them from becoming UK. But such issues going to make it harder.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

I agree with you. I've never met any pro-lifer who wouldn't agree with abortion if it's necessary to save the mother's life. It's still sad but in this case the mother's life should have been given priority.

I was wondering if maybe it wasn't some kind of ectopic pregnancy that killed her. The article doesn't really seem to say.

Its a case of Termination of pregnancy at 17 weeks after a confirmed MISCARRIAGE, Having a heartbeat does not mean alive medically necessarily (There are a lot of other factors). And the Health of a mother takes priority even in 50-50 chance cases in most countries. Irelend just does not have a specified legal parameter for such a situation, thus the hesitant behaviour from the docs.

[Rubystars]

It is stuff like these that makes the average American not vote for the political right.

Let this case, be a wakeup call to everybody in Ireland, at least they will abolish such laws and save lives of thousands of women. But I am also afraid that the liberals will use this case to their benefit. Ireland needs a right wing party, that will prevent them from becoming UK. But such issues going to make it harder.

The laws need to be amended, not abolished. You're feeding into what the liberals want people to do. If they entirely abolish the laws then many innocent babies will be murdered for convenience' sake. The laws just need to be amended to ensure that incidents like this don't occur.

Its a case of Termination of pregnancy at 17 weeks after a confirmed MISCARRIAGE, Having a heartbeat does not mean alive medically necessarily (There are a lot of other factors). And the Health of a mother takes priority even in 50-50 chance cases in most countries. Irelend just does not have a specified legal parameter for such a situation, thus the hesitant behaviour from the docs.

The mother's life should take priority. I don't understand how you are saying that the baby was already miscarried if there was a fetal heartbeat. If the baby was already dead it wouldn't have had a heartbeat. On the other hand if the pregnancy is going to kill the mother then the abortion would have been necessary and the doctors should have done it anyway.

[Rubystars]

Catholics do not in any way, shape or form represent even the most minute, twisted form of the political right. They are a giant beaurocracy crippled by irrelevancy, and support Islam whole-heartedly.

I call BS on this because none of the Catholics I know support Islam. Some of the RCC leadership has in the past but that's not the same as the members. They're a really large, really diverse group and many of them are genuinely right wing. Ted Kennedy claimed to be a Catholic but I think he was about as much of a Christian as Obama is.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Nobody in the "American right" wants to prohibit abortions in the case of medical emergencies--nobody.

[syyuge]

Whatever are the medical, heartbeat and technical details and controversies, but the case was really serious because the mother ultimately died.

I am unable to think about the reaction of doctors and others involved, if the mother would have been an arabic or a muslamic.

[Irish Zionist]

At the risk of offending people I must say it is completely ridiculous to hold the life of the fetus as more important than the life of the mother. That is fanatical and is certainly not what G-d wants from humanity. Pro-life means doing everything we can to prevent the needless termination of fetal life. It does not mean sacrificing the mothers life. Jewish law has always been clear on this issue {as far as I understand}. Jewish law has always held that abortion is murder unless the mothers life is in danger. If the mothers life is in danger, then the mothers life comes before the unborn child. This makes the most sense, and should be the position of all sane humans.

I don't know what happened there in Ireland. But if it is truly as that article portrays, that this is because Ireland is a Catholic state, then there should definitely some soul searching going on by the government.

Come on!
Do you really believe that a doctor would say that? The pro abortionists/murderers keep on harping that quote and demand abortion being made legal. The quote is unconfirmed and it's not believable.

[muman613]

Come on!
Do you really believe that a doctor would say that? The pro abortionists/murderers keep on harping that quote and demand abortion being made legal. The quote is unconfirmed and it's not believable.

As I said, this is the question, according to my opinion.... If it was stated that they could not provide the termination because of the law of the state (which may be due to the churches involvement with the government) then there may be an issue here.

As I stated mu opinion is that abortion should be illegal unless there is a threat to the life of the mother.... A lenient opinion would also permit aborting if the pregnancy was due to rape (although I struggle with this one)...

[Irish Zionist]

As I said, this is the question, according to my opinion.... If it was stated that they could not provide the termination because of the law of the state (which may be due to the churches involvement with the government) then there may be an issue here.

I'm not saying the it was wrong for this to happen. It was an awful tragedy.
The Church had no involvement in this, this was a legislative issue where the government were too lazy to enact the proper legislation. They are putting the blame on the Church and taking advantage of this issue to bring in abortion. Plain and simple.

As I stated mu opinion is that abortion should be illegal unless there is a threat to the life of the mother.... A lenient opinion would also permit aborting if the pregnancy was due to rape (although I struggle with this one)...

So it was the child's fault that the father raped the mother.
Why not give the child a chance to live?

[muman613]

I'm not saying the it was wrong for this to happen. It was an awful tragedy.
The Church had no involvement in this, this was a legislative issue where the government were too lazy to enact the proper legislation. They are putting the blame on the Church and taking advantage of this issue to bring in abortion. Plain and simple.

So it was the child's fault that the father raped the mother.
Why not give the child a chance to live?

I introduced that idea from a discussion I read of the Jewish view toward abortion. I do not share the lenient opinion, but I wrote it in order to cover many angles on the issue (from the Halachic perspective).

In the case of rape the mothers psychological health may come into play. If the rape and pregnancy cause her depression and suicidal thoughts it may (according to the lenient opinion) be permitted. Again I do not believe that this should be the case, but according to some Rabbis the 'health' of the mother also includes her 'mental health'...

[muman613]

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html

It is important to point out that the reason that the life of the fetus is subordinate to the mother is because the fetus is the cause of the mother's life-threatening condition, whether directly (e.g. due to toxemia, placenta previa, or breach position) or indirectly (e.g. exacerbation of underlying diabetes, kidney disease, or hypertension).8 A fetus may not be aborted to save the life of any other person whose life is not directly threatened by the fetus, such as use of fetal organs for transplant.

Judaism recognizes psychiatric as well as physical factors in evaluating the potential threat that the fetus poses to the mother. However, the danger posed by the fetus (whether physical or emotional) must be both probable and substantial to justify abortion.9 The degree of mental illness that must be present to justify termination of a pregnancy has been widely debated by rabbinic scholars,10 without a clear consensus of opinion regarding the exact criteria for permitting abortion in such instances.11 Nevertheless, all agree that were a pregnancy to causes a woman to become truly suicidal, there would be grounds for abortion.12 However, several modern rabbinical experts ruled that since pregnancy-induced and post-partum depressions are treatable, abortion is not warranted.13

As a rule, Jewish law does not assign relative values to different lives. Therefore, almost most major poskim (Rabbis qualified to decide matters of Jewish law) forbid abortion in cases of abnormalities or deformities found in a fetus. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, one the greatest poskim of the past century, rules that even amniocentesis is forbidden if it is performed only to evaluate for birth defects for which the parents might request an abortion. Nevertheless, a test may be performed if a permitted action may result, such as performance of amniocentesis or drawing alpha-fetoprotein levels for improved peripartum or postpartum medical management.

[Irish Zionist]

Thanks Muman for that read on Jewish law regarding abortion.
Regardless of what some Rabbi's say, I will never agree with them that a child should suffer if the mother is suicidal.

[Rubystars]

I would like to see a lot of prenatal tests that only test for deformity stop being done most of the time because it leads to a lot of innocent babies with Down Syndrome or something as minor as dwarfism being murdered. At least I think there should be major restrictions put on the reasons for abortion. It's one thing for a family to be prepared to care for a special needs child or a child with a physical difference, and it's another thing to reject that child and murder them.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

The mother's life should take priority. I don't understand how you are saying that the baby was already miscarried if there was a fetal heartbeat. If the baby was already dead it wouldn't have had a heartbeat. On the other hand if the pregnancy is going to kill the mother then the abortion would have been necessary and the doctors should have done it anyway.

Irrespective of the heartbeat being present, the fetus should have been removed when it was determined that the baby was going to die regardless. The woman's life should have been saved. A simple legislation would have solved all the problems, but will the Irish government consider such laws. In India, abortion is illegal, but there is a Medical Termination of Pregnancy Act.  Cases when pregnancies may be terminated by registered medical practitioners.

(i) the continuance of the pregnancy would involve a risk to the life of the pregnant woman or of grave injury to her physical or mental health; or

(ii)there is a substantial risk that if the child were born, it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities to be seriously handicapped.

Explanation 1 - Where any pregnancy is alleged by the pregnant woman to have been caused by rape, the anguish caused by such pregnancy shall be presumed to constitute a grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman.

Explanation 2 - Where any pregnancy occurs as a result of failure of any device or method used by any married woman or her husband for the purpose of limiting the number of children, the anguish caused by such unwanted pregnancy may be resumed to constitute a grave injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman.

(3)In determining whether the continuance of a pregnancy would involve such risk of injury to the health as is mentioned in sub-section (2), account may be taken of the pregnant women’s actual or reasonable foreseeable environment.

(4)(a)No pregnancy of a woman, who has not attained the age of eighteen years, or, who, having attained the age of eighteen years, is a lunatic, shall be terminated except with the consent in writing of her guardian.

(b)Save as otherwise provided in clause (a), no pregnancy shall be terminated except with the consent of the pregnant woman.

http://www.medindia.net/indian_health_act/medical-termination-of-pregnancy-act-1971-when-pregnancies-may-be-terminated-by-registered-medical-practitioners.htm#ixzz2CMweaRSN

[Sveta]

I believe Muman is correct.
In case the mother's life in in danger, the mother's life comes first. In essence, if the fetus is killing the mother- the fetus must go.

And strangely enough, I met enough hardcore crhistians and a really extreme catholic man who told me that even if the mother's life is in danger, the abortion must not happen. Even if the mother dies. This was VERY extreme to hear. So some pro-lifers want to ban abortion in ALL cases, even if the mother can die.

In my opinion abortion is wrong in some cases. When it comes to sexually depraved people who think intercourse is nothing but a mere act (which they turn into an unholy act) and the woman gets pregnant. If she doesn't want the child (or if the man pressures her to get an abortion) then that is definitely a killing of the fetus (who is a potential life). So yes that is terribly wrong.

If however the mother's life is in danger then I fully support abortion. If the fetus is found to be completely sick and may be born with severe problems that may affect his or her quality of life it is a hard call and I don't know the halacha on that. I saw the story of a baby that was born with only a smart part of its brain- the poor child's head was almost flat where the brain would be. Is this a situation where someone would abort the fetus or have the child? I just don't know.

In the case of rape. There are some women who deliver babies from rape- many of them give the children to adoptive parents. I don't know how many keep them.
As a woman, rape is absolutely a disgusting abominable act. Completely affecting a woman's emotional and psychological health. Going to therapy. It's just a sick disgusting act. I don't know how anyone could ever tell a raped woman that she has to carry the fetus inside of her for 9 months. Every day being a reminded of the disgusting act that happened to her.

Let's give an example: Tiffany, a straight A student and happy young blonde cheerleader walking home from school suddenly gets attacked and dragged into an alley. The thugs are a group of black or hispanic inner city gangmembers who are initiation a new gangmember.  He need to rape her as part of his initiation. He does and after him, the other gang members take their turn. In the end, she is horribly beaten, cut, scratched. Left with marks.
She is in the hospital for a few days when she find out one of those thugs got her pregnant.

Are we as a society going to tell Tiffany that she has to keep the child? As her belly grows, she would see the reminder of what happened. Feeling it kick, move- at the same time reminder her of the act. Then the labor pains- is she going to go through the entire labor pains and pay for the hospital in order to deliver the child?
Obviously it is not the child's fault. But the fetus in her womb would seriously affect her spiritually and honestly, if "Tiffany" or any other woman in her situation had an abortion in this case, as a woman I would not condemn her. I would be ashamed if I lived in a society that would stop her from doing it.

[cjd]

The story sounds incredible to say the least... What kind of doctors or society would allow a woman to die from a condition that clearly is going to kill her and her unborn child... I could see having laws on the books limiting abortion however its cases like this that cause people to go completely into the pro abortion camp... This is what happens when people allow extreme religion to cloud clear thinking... Personally I can't believe the Irish laws are so rigid on this issue that they would expect a woman to die in a situation like this that could have been reversed with the removal of the fetus... I am not an expert on church doctrine for most of the major Christian groups however I honestly believe most normal thinking people would expect doctors in this case to do what was needed to save the mothers life.