Is it traitorous for Jews to serve in any of the U.S. military branches ?

[Ehud]

I know this Jewish guy who has just joined the United States Air Force.  Are he and American Jews who serve in the American military establishment traitors?  Is it traitorous to Israel when an American Jew has committed himself to serving in a military and devoting his time and sacrifice to a military that is not the Israeli military?  These people obviously have the choice of what military they want to serve in.  They can serve in the Israeli military EASILY.  So they have this choice and they choose not to serve in Israel but instead they want to serve in the American military, potentially giving their lives to a misguided foreign policy to "democratize" Iraq or some other foreign misadventure.  These American Jews who serve in the United States military know that there are Arab Muslim Nazis who wish and attempt to destroy Israel and the Jewish people and they would rather choose to serve in the American army, KNOWING THAT.  And please don't give me any B.S. about, if you serve in the United States military you are indirectly helping Israel, that won't fly.  So, are these people traitors to the Jewish people?     

[Yisrael]

First of all, in the US Military you get paid. This is a job.

Next, Israel doesn't appreciate it's soldiers. They use them to evict Jews from their homes, not to defend their country. In the USA, American troops are not called in to kick Americans out of their homes.

Joining the US Military is fine, I think it's great.

[Ehud]

Not all Israeli soldiers are used to evict people from their homes.  Over the past decade or so, the majority of Israeli soldiers were NOT used for this purpose.

[Yisrael]

Not all Israeli soldiers are used to evict people from their homes.  Over the past decade or so, the majority of Israeli soldiers were NOT used for this purpose.

Right, but the IDF doesn't respect their soldiers. Any Army that has it's soldiers go against their own country is a treasonous Army.

[RationalThought110]

Not all Israeli soldiers are used to evict people from their homes.  Over the past decade or so, the majority of Israeli soldiers were NOT used for this purpose.

Right, but the IDF doesn't respect their soldiers. Any Army that has it's soldiers go against their own country is a treasonous Army.

What about when the US allowed border patrol agents to be sent to jail while drug smugglers were allowed to go free?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Or when Jonathan Pollard was sent to death row for protecting us from Saddam Hussein?

Or when military prosecutors lynch heroic soldiers in Iraq on nonexistent prisoner abuse and war-crimes charges?

I have news for you--the United States isn't any more righteous than Israel.

[Yisrael]

Those are individual cases, and yes, the US Army isnt perfect. But hey, that's life.

The IDF used the military for evil, the US Military may have done evil things to soldiers.

But the bottom line is, the US Military is a job, you get paid, learn good skills, if you want to do it go ahead.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I would rather be homeless than one of Bush's frame-up boys, sent to die in a gulag for defending myself from insurgents.

[Ehud]

Or how about the United States soldiers who are dying every day in Iraq preventing arab muslim Nazis from murdering other arab muslim nazis, all of whom want to destroy the U.S., Israel, and Western civilization?  What about the American presence in Iraq which leaves the U.S. unable, unprepared, and unwilling to prevent Iran from acquiring terrorist nuclear weapons which they seek to detonate in major American cities. 

[TheCoon]

I think advising people not to serve in the armies of America or Israel is a grave mistake.

[Ehud]

Of course, thunderbolt.  This nonsense about boycotting the military is ridiculous.  I just think that gentiles should serve in the U.S. military and Jews should serve in the Israeli military.  Opposing the Israeli military because SOME of the military was involved in expelling settlers is like deserting your best and most loyal friend because you had an argument with him. 

[TheCoon]

Agreed. Although I think that it's ok for Jews to serve in the US military until they move to Israel.

And let's face it, the Israeli military still defends Israel from the muslim nazi nations around it. If the army directs you to evict Jews from their homes, you can always refuse to carry them out and face the consequences. Most of the more learned rabbis in Israel have agreed that throwing Jews out of their homes is wrong anyways.

[cosmokramer]

I think Jews should not serve in  the US military, Police forces, US Customs, stuff like that sure. But the military for the Jews is only the IDF.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thunderbolt, nobody is listening to you. The IDF isn't preventing the Muslims from doing diddly squat. Every day hundreds of missiles from Gaza hit towns in pre-67 Israel. If that's the IDF doing its job you have your head up your tuchis.

[newman]

Thunderbolt, nobody is listening to you. The IDF isn't preventing the Muslims from doing diddly squat. Every day hundreds of missiles from Gaza hit towns in pre-67 Israel. If that's the IDF doing its job you have your head up your tuchis.

 

[Ehud]

Every day hundreds of missiles are sent from Gaza?  Where are you getting your information from?  That's grossly inaccurate.  Almost every day there are arab muslim nazi terrorists killed or captured.  The IDF is training in the Golan right now to prepare for a potential war against Syria.  Those are things that protect us against Muslims.  There are many other examples.  The IDF does targeted assassinations of terrorist leaders on more than a weekly basis.  IDF soldiers man the checkpoints and preventing muslims terrorists from entering Israel.  Your expectations to have no rockets fired from Gaza is not a reasonable one Chaim Fan.  It would be impossible unless we literally killed hundreds of thousands of people.   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't think Jews or Gentiles should serve in either country's military. The main purpose of the IDF is to kick Jews out of their country and the purpose of the U.S. military is to be the puppet of the elites. In the past fifteen years, our soldiers have been dragged through the streets and burned alive in the process of feeding Somali savages, sent to bomb innocent Serbia, pissed away in the scapegoat nation of Afghanistan (because Dubya would never have had us attack Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, the obvious masterminds of 9/11), and now lynched on imaginary war-crimes charges in Iraq because not all of them gladly took bullets from insurgent scum.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Every day hundreds of missiles are sent from Gaza?  Where are you getting your information from?  That's grossly inaccurate.  Almost every day there are arab muslim nazi terrorists killed or captured.  The IDF is training in the Golan right now to prepare for a potential war against Syria.  Those are things that protect us against Muslims.  There are many other examples.  The IDF does targeted assassinations of terrorist leaders on more than a weekly basis.  IDF soldiers man the checkpoints and preventing muslims terrorists from entering Israel.  Your expectations to have no rockets fired from Gaza is not a reasonable one Chaim Fan.  It would be impossible unless we literally killed hundreds of thousands of people.   

I really do not know what you are trying to argue here, but ask yourself... how many average Israelis actually feel safe, this instant? How many Israelis have felt safe since 1973? You call "pinpoint assassinations" a workable strategy? If there's a trail of ants in my kitchen, do you think that by only squashing the lead ant with a pencil eraser I will be able to stop the colony, because it would be inhumane to take a can of Raid to the whole trail? Is killing five or six terrorists per week, and losing almost that many Israeli soldiers doing it, an effective strategy?

The reason why Muslim Nazi nations aren't simultaneously attacking this instant isn't because they are in mortal fear of the IDF, but because they are waiting until the time is right. Last summer's wars with Hezbollah, and to a lesser extent Hamas, showed how useless the IDF has become under Sharon and Kadima's treasonous rule.

[Ehud]

My point is that it's absurd to say that no one should serve in the IDF.  There are always limits to what a military is capable of.  Just because Israelis don't necessarily feel safe doesn't mean that the military isn't doing its job.  Even if the IDF was a near perfect army people would still feel unsafe.  Do you really think the IDF is even capable of creating a situation where no Israeli feels under threat at all?  There hasn't been an Israeli death from muslims in months.  In fact more IDF soldiers have been killed in car accidents in that time frame.  Sure it would be great if we could carpet bomb Gaza but that's not possible.  Israel would be faced with such international condemnation that would make the condemnation of the IDF in Lebanon pale in comparison.  Who knows what would happen if we started carpet bombing Gaza, it would probably plunge the entire region into war.  Hamas, Fatah, Hezbullah and Iran would unleash a complete assault on Israel and Syria would probably join the mix.  Would that be desirable?  Yes we all wish that all the Fakestinian terrorists would be killed but you don't realize that it's not really possible.  If we attempted to wipe them all out it would be tantamount to genocide in the eyes of the world, tens of thousands of non-militant people would be killed.  Not that I wouldn't support that, but it is simply not possible.  You are holding the IDF to an impossible standard and then using that standard to justify not supporting the IDF.  We don't live in a perfect world.   

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Where do you get the figure that no Israelis have been killed by Muslims in months?

As for the bulk of your argument, I don't know what you are proposing and how it fits in with the goals of JTF. The goal of JTF is to pay Arabs to leave Israel and to react ferociously to terrorism. Would the whole world declare war on Israel if that happened? Perhaps, but is that a reason for Israel to keep doing what it is (rolling over and doing nothing)? Where is your faith in Hashem to give Israel miraculous protection and victory against nations of any size? How is the status quo that you are proposing going to save Israel and make her a light unto the world?

Blowing up empty buildings in retaliation for suicide attacks that kill thirty Jews at a time and assassinating one terrorist in retaliation for the shelling of an Israeli village are not ways to save your country.

What I can say now is that the current policy--which is to ethnically cleanse Jews from entire provinces (Gaza), expel Jewish hilltop families from the outpost homes in Judea and Samaria they have built with their blood, sweat, and tears, and to allow the Fatah/Hamas terrorists to shell pre-67 Israel on a constant basis is far beyond criminal. This military does not have my support, and if you think I am alone in this, ask Chaim his opinion of the IDF in Ask JTF.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

BTW, I have said the exact same things about our military. I'm not picking on the IDF. America's soldiers are the noblest of all Americans, but they are being sent to die for nothing and if they refuse to die, are being railroaded in the most obscene of kangaroo courts imaginable.

[Muck DeFuslims]

Ze'ev, I agree with you about service in the IDF, but must disagree with you that carpet bombing Gaza is impossible.

Yes, you certainly make valid points about international reactions etc.

That's one of the greatest problems Israel faces.

Bowing to international pressure and trying to please the Israel hating UN, EU etc, and kowtowing before an America with an often duplicitous agenda is surely something any Kahanist regime will work to minimize or eliminate.

Carpet bombing Gaza might be impractical now, but it's shouldn't be considered a permanent impossibility.

[Ehud]

Where do you get the figure that no Israelis have been killed by Muslims in months?

I meant no Israeli soldiers.  I keep up on the Israeli news every day and I'm almost positive that no soldier has been killed in at least the last few months.  I asked my mother just to confirm this and she keeps up on the news and according to her recollection she confirmed it.  I'm saying a few months because I want to be safe.  It has been longer than that though.  The IDF is VERY efficient at killing muslim terrorists while preventing deaths of Israeli soldiers.  There was a death of a soldier a few months back in a civilian auto accident and there was another death of a soldier from my home town of Karmiel a few weeks ago in a military vehicle accident.   

[Muck DeFuslims]

BTW, I have said the exact same things about our military. I'm not picking on the IDF. America's soldiers are the noblest of all Americans, but they are being sent to die for nothing and if they refuse to die, are being railroaded in the most obscene of kangaroo courts imaginable.

Yes.
And that's the inevitable result of having an Army act as a police force, rather than as a unit whose purpose is to annihilate and defeat the enemy.
That's what happens when minimizing 'collateral damage' and protecting the lives of 'innocents' supercedes the value placed on the lives of our fighting men and women.

It's absolutely obscene.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The IDF is VERY efficient at killing muslim terrorists while preventing deaths of Israeli soldiers.

I would agree with you if you prefaced that with "is capable of being". Under Kadima handcuffing, terrorist lives (I don't even mean so-called Arab "civilian" lives, I mean those of the actual gunmen) are put ahead of the soldiers.

There was a death of a soldier a few months back in a civilian auto accident and there was another death of a soldier from my home town of Karmiel a few weeks ago in a military vehicle accident.   

I do not know of the exact incidents you speak of, but most car accidents in Israel are caused by unlicensed, uninsured Arabs who either do not know how to drive or are trying to be shahids without bombs.