Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Sefer Torahs of the 20th Century
Tag-MehirTzedek:
Muman their is more depth to that story. They were talking about whether going to war with Rome or not. They did not want to tolerate any subordination and those not participating while other were. That is why they went very harshly against R' Eliezer. In the end as the Bat Kol says he was correct, they did not win the war, never-the-less this case needed the consent of the majority and everyone needed to participate in the war.
" but any Jewish court making decisions of Halacha."
That is the problem, their are many courts today and not 1 court. At their time they had a more unified system where they all answered to 1 court (perhaps 2) 1 in Israel and 1 in Bavel. Their majority had more credibility (if this did take place exactly). Today you cannot claim the "majority of the Gedolim" because you would need to exactly define who is and who is not a Gadol and 2) also realize that often those defining who is and who is not see it this way- those they agree with is a Gadol and those they do not often they do not (sometimes even belittle).
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 17, 2013, 09:15:17 PM --- Muman their is more depth to that story. They were talking about whether going to war with Rome or not. They did not want to tolerate any subordination and those not participating while other were. That is why they went very harshly against R' Eliezer. In the end as the Bat Kol says he was correct, they did not win the war, never-the-less this case needed the consent of the majority and everyone needed to participate in the war.
" but any Jewish court making decisions of Halacha."
That is the problem, their are many courts today and not 1 court. At their time they had a more unified system where they all answered to 1 court (perhaps 2) 1 in Israel and 1 in Bavel. Their majority had more credibility (if this did take place exactly). Today you cannot claim the "majority of the Gedolim" because you would need to exactly define who is and who is not a Gadol and 2) also realize that often those defining who is and who is not see it this way- those they agree with is a Gadol and those they do not often they do not (sometimes even belittle).
--- End quote ---
Tag, I don't think that is the Tractate I am discussing... I believe the issue was whether a particular oven was pure or impure...
Could you find the reference to the tractate you are discussing...
--- Quote ---Baba Metzia 59a
We learnt elsewhere: If he cut it into separate tiles, placing sand between each tile: R. Eliezer declared it clean, and the Sages declared it unclean;
59b
and this was the oven of 'Aknai.1 Why [the oven of] 'Aknai? — Said Rab Judah in Samuel's name: [It means] that they encompassed it with arguments2 as a snake, and proved it unclean. It has been taught: On that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument,3 but they did not accept them. Said he to them: 'If the halachah agrees with me, let this carob-tree prove it!'
1) This refers to an oven, which, instead of being made in one piece, was made in a series of separate portions with a layer of sand between each. R. Eliezer maintains that since each portion in itself is not a utensil, the sand between prevents the whole structure from being regarded as a single utensil, and therefore it is not liable to uncleanness. The Sages however hold that the outer coating of mortar or cement unifies the whole, and it is therefore liable to uncleanness. (This is the explanation given by Maimonides on the Mishnah, Kel. V, 10. Rashi a.l. adopts a different reasoning). 'Aknai is a proper noun, probably the name of a master, but it also means 'snake'. ([G]) which meaning the Talmud proceeds to discuss.
--- End quote ---
And I do agree that observing Halacha is difficult because today we don't have any universally accepted 'Gedolim' who have sufficient power to influence the rest of those who count themselves as poseks.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 17, 2013, 09:07:43 PM ---T If you could provide a link with an explanation saying 'Sanhedrin' I will accept your opinion, but I have learned it was the 'Beit Din' which is not the Sanhedrin but any Jewish court making decisions of Halacha.
--- End quote ---
That is exactly the point! What Beit Din. How many Beit Din's did they have when they made their decisions?
And if you go by your words " but any Jewish court making decisions of Halacha" today then you would have to sometimes accept contradictory decisions and abide by both or all of them?
Soo for example you would be wearing and not be wearing Tefillin during Hol Hamoed? Or you would be voting in Israeli elections and not be voting in Israeli elections. Since One supposedly court says "Psak Din one must vote" and another such court says "Psak din one is not allowed to vote". go read the Paskelim plastered around Mea Shearim and other such places.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 17, 2013, 09:22:10 PM ---
That is exactly the point! What Beit Din. How many Beit Din's did they have when they made their decisions?
And if you go by your words " but any Jewish court making decisions of Halacha" today then you would have to sometimes accept contradictory decisions and abide by both or all of them?
Soo for example you would be wearing and not be wearing Tefillin during Hol Hamoed? Or you would be voting in Israeli elections and not be voting in Israeli elections. Since One supposedly court says "Psak Din one must vote" and another such court says "Psak din one is not allowed to vote". go read the Paskelim plastered around Mea Shearim and other such places.
--- End quote ---
Yes, this is what I mean that it is difficult to abide by all the poseks. Which is why I agree with your point that one must choose a Rabbi and stick by his Halachic rulings rather than 'picking-and-choosing' which decisions to abide by.
But it is also true that often poseks will agree, or argue various points, all working to find the ultimate truth. This is why I don't immediately accept decisions which are so important (such as whether a Sefer Torah is 'kosher')... Once I see the responsa I can decide if the original posek thought of all the possible arguments...
I will check out that story of Baba Metzia which you sent...
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 17, 2013, 09:25:22 PM ---Yes, this is what I mean that it is difficult to abide by all the poseks. Which is why I agree with your point that one must choose a Rabbi and stick by his Halachic rulings rather than 'picking-and-choosing' which decisions to abide by.
--- End quote ---
A possible problem becomes though if one is knowledgeable enough to make his/her own decisions and they know that the psak is wrong by their particular Rav on that particular decision. I do not believe the person would be allowed to follow their Rav on that exact decision. This is true even with the case of a full Sanhedrin (check Tractate Horayot which discusses cases where even the Sanhedrin made a mistake and a person who is knowledgable enough followed the wrong decisions he had to bring his seperate Korban, his mistake was thinking that he needed to follow the Sanhedrin in the wrong decision that it made).
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