Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Sefer Torahs of the 20th Century
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on February 17, 2013, 04:10:09 PM --- The OPPOSITE is true. It is the majority of the Sanhedrin that the Halacha is decided and today their is no such thing as majority or minority.
I did check many of his other Halachot and did some reseach about him.
First off I had some Kashrut questions and Rav Bar-Hayim Shlitta directed me to him. And I saw the q's and answers from his site (managed by his (adult) children).
http://kashrut.org/forum/
I did some research about him and he was the Rav of Lakewood Yeshiva and in charge of Kashrut. Do you know THE Lakewood Yeshiva. He was sent by the Hazon Ish to Lakewood, some time ago and now he is back in Har Nof Israel.
I heard it was said that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Shlitta does not stand for anyone except for Rav Abaddi Shlitta when he enters a room (out of respect).
Check their Q's and A's.
--- End quote ---
So who, in your opinion, is the Pope of the Jews? There is no Rabbi who is the final posek on all questions. It is people like you and KWRBT who always point to one Rabbi and say his way is the only way. And I think you are confused about whether the decision goes by the majority or not. There is a famous Talmud tractate which demonstrates that even between Talmudic Rabbis that the decision goes by the majority.
Here is a commentary on this Talmud (Bava Metzia):
http://www.torahtots.com/parsha/devarim/nitzav3.htm
--- Quote ---DOWN TO EARTH
The Talmud (Baba Metzia 59b) explains, "it is not in heaven" as follows:
After the Torah was given, it was no longer "in heaven." Hashem does not make Torah decisions in Heaven. Halachic (Torah law) decisions must be decided by human authorities following the guidelines given to Moshe at Har (Mt.) Sinai. It is Hashem's will that the Sages apply the laws of the Torah to the best of their human understanding. Decisions must reflect the opinion of the majority of a Bait Din (Jewish court), who are the final authority in all cases of Torah law.
The Talmud (ibid) brings this story to prove its point.
The Sages were debating whether or not a certain type of oven could become tamay (impure). The majority of the Sages ruled that it could. Rabbi Eliezer ben (son of) Horkenos held that it could not.
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos, perhaps the most outstanding Sage of the generation, cited many proofs in favor of his position, but the Sages, who were the majority, would not accept these proofs.
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "This carob tree will demonstrate that the Halachah (Torah law) follows my opinion."
A miracle occurred whereby the carob tree uprooted itself and replanted itself 100 cubits away. (some say, four hundred amot).
The Sages replied: "Halachah is not established on the basis of a carob tree.* "
[*Since Rabbi Eliezer was a very righteous man, the tree might have been uprooted at his command. This does not prove, though, that his ruling was correct.]
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "This stream of water will demonstrate that the Halachah follows my opinion." The stream of water began to flow backwards against the current.
The Sages replied: "Halachah is not established on the basis of a stream."
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "The walls of the Bait Hamidrash (House of Study) will demonstrate that the Halachah follows my opinion."
The walls of the Bait Hamidrash began to tremble and fall, and the Sages feared that any moment they would collapse.
Rabbi Yehoshua called out to the walls: "Why are you interfering in a Halachic debate among Sages?"
Immediately, out of respect for Rabbi Yehoshua, the walls did not collapse, but out of deference to Rabbi Eliezer, they did not return to their original upright position either. They remained slanted.
Rabbi Eliezer ben Horkenos declared: "The heavens will attest that the Halachah follows my opinion."
A bat kol (heavenly divine voice) proclaimed: "Why do you contest Rabbi Eliezer? The halachah always follows Rabbi Eliezer's teachings."
Rabbi Yehoshua rose and declared:
"It is written: 'It is not in heaven." ' (Devarim ibid).
What is meant by; 'It is not in the heaven'? Rebbi Yirmiah said: It means that we don't listen to a bat kol in matters of Halachah, for the Torah was already given to man at Har Sinai.
Rabbi Yehoshua continued:
"We don't listen to the bat kol because You (Hashem) already wrote in the Torah at Har Sinai (Shmot, Exodus 23:2) 'According to the majority (the matter) shall be decided.'*
[*R' Yehoshua understood this to mean that Hashem would never interfere with the judicial process through which the law is decided. Accordingly he interpreted the Heavenly echo to be merely a test of whether the Sages would hold their ground. And the next story proved him correct.]
Later, one of the Sages, Rabbi Natan met Eliyahu Hanavi (Elijah the prophet). He asked him: "What did Hashem say during this argument?"
Eliyahu replied to him: "He was laughing and saying (with satisfaction), 'My sons won me in the discussion.' "*
--- End quote ---
http://halakhah.com/babamezia/babamezia_59.html#PARTb
This article and the Talmud does not say 'Sanhedrin' it says 'Beit Din' which is just a court of Rabbis.
muman613:
What I don't really understand is why you must accept one opinion before others have had a chance to respond (via the process of responsa) which occurs during every Halachic evolution. Halacha is not carved in stone, and the application of existing laws must be applied to modern devices. This is where 'responsa' comes in.
--- Quote ---http://ohr.edu/judaism/survey/survey6.htm#SHUT
RESPONSA
* "Responsa" are the responses of Torah scholars to questions of Jewish law posed to them both by laymen and experts.
* These scholars apply the law and philosophy of Judaism to the changing circumstances of Jewish life; to technological and social innovations; to medical issues; and other aspects of contemporary living.
* Responsa literature provides insight into the workings of Jewish law and reveals the concerns of Jews around the world and throughout the ages.
--- End quote ---
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 17, 2013, 08:39:56 PM ---1)So who, in your opinion, is the Pope of the Jews? 2) There is no Rabbi who is the final posek on all questions. 3)It is people like you and KWRBT who always point to one Rabbi and say his way is the only way. 4)And I think you are confused about whether the decision goes by the majority or not. There is a famous Talmud tractate which demonstrates that even between Talmudic Rabbis that the decision goes by the majority.
--- End quote ---
1)Their is none, nor should their ever be. The ideal and real system is the system of the Sanhedrin.
2) Their are a number, one can and should follow their Rav. If they are more knowledgeable and are able to delve into the sources better (with pro and opposing views they can make decisions based on info. given)
3) Nope. It was in response to someone knocking this or that Rav and questioning their credentials. No one forced you or anyone anything.
4) Majority is only in the case of the Sanhedrin and when their actually was an organized type of system. Today unfortunately their is none. Also who should be counted among this majority? These Rabbis have other Rabbis under them (their students and students students). Soo should all of them be counted as part of majority or not? This is also the case with many other people as well. For example do all the students of Rav Ovadia Yosef all together count as 1 vote or each get's a vote even some just stick strictly to his psak din word for word (or close to it). Should everyone with a title of "Rabbi" get 1 vote? And if his students (or R' Elyahiv's or some other "Gadol" then what about students of Rav Abadi? do all of them count as 1 vote or each separately? Tell me how to do this counting?
And if its just the "Gadolim" then who is a gadol? Who defines who is and who is not a Gadol? Is it some unified system or is it your opinion? And if your opinion then is your opinion better then my opinion or the opinion of the next guy?
muman613:
Tag, I hear what you are saying and I don't want to argue about it. But that section from Baba Metzia was written after the destruction of the Temple and there was no Sanhedrin at the time. I believe all translations (and I don't have an actual Hebrew reference) say Beit Din when it talks about the majority. If you could provide a link with an explanation saying 'Sanhedrin' I will accept your opinion, but I have learned it was the 'Beit Din' which is not the Sanhedrin but any Jewish court making decisions of Halacha.
Here it is in a Daf Yomi:
http://dafyomi.co.il/bmetzia/points/bm-ps-059.htm
--- Quote ---(c) (Beraisa): R. Eliezer gave all proofs in the world why it is Tahor; Chachamim did not accept them.
1. R. Eliezer: If the law is like me, this carob tree should show it. (The tree moved 100 Amos.)
2. Chachamim: We don't bring proof from a tree.
3. R. Eliezer: If the law is like me, the irrigation ditch should show it. (The water reversed the direction of its flow.)
4. Chachamim: We don't bring proof from an irrigation ditch.
5. R. Eliezer: If the law is like me, the walls of the Beis Medrash should show it. (The walls leaned to fall.)
6. R. Yehoshua (to the walls): We are arguing over Halachah. This is not your affair!
i. The walls stopped falling, to honor R. Yehoshua. To this day they remain bent, in honor of R. Eliezer.
7. R. Eliezer: If the law is like me, Heaven should show it.
8. (A voice from Heaven): Why do you argue with R. Eliezer? The Halachah always follows him!
9. R. Yehoshua: It (the Halachah) is not in Heaven.
(d) Question: What does this mean?
(e) Answer (R. Yirmiyah): Once the Torah was given on Sinai, we do not heed voices from Heaven. Rather, we follow the majority of Chachamim - "Acharei Rabim Lehatos".
--- End quote ---
muman613:
Here is another Daf Yomi on this tractate.
--- Quote ---http://dafyomi.co.il/bmetzia/insites/bm-dt-059.htm
2) TORAH IS NOT IN HEAVEN
QUESTION: The Gemara relates the incident of "Tanuro Shel Achna'i" and the miraculous ways in which Rebbi Eliezer attempted to convince the Chachamim that the Halachah was in accordance with his opinion. He miraculously uprooted a carob tree, had the waters of a river shift direction, and caused the walls of the study wall to lean inwards, and still the Chachamim did not change their mind. He then declared that Heaven should prove that he is correct, and a Bas Kol emanated and pronounced, "Why are you challenging Rebbi Eliezer, when the Halachah is like him?" Rebbi Yehoshua stood up and declared, "Lo ba'Shamayim Hi" -- "It (the Torah) is not in the heavens!" (Devarim 30:12).
TOSFOS (DH Lo ba'Shamayim) asks that the Chachamim had a different reaction to the Bas Kol which decided the question of whether the Halachah should follow the view of Beis Shamai or the view of Beis Hillel. The Gemara in Yevamos (14a) relates that when the Bas Kol declared that the Halachah should follow Beis Hillel, the Halachah indeed was established in accordance with the view of Beis Hillel. Why does the Gemara here say that the Halachah is not decided based on a Bas Kol?
The MAHARAM explains that Tosfos is not asking his question on the view of Rebbi Yehoshua, as the Gemara in Yevamos itself cites Rebbi Yehoshua who said there as well that we do not rely on a Bas Kol. The question of Tosfos is on the Gemara in Yevamos (and other places) which follows the view of Beis Hillel because of the Bas Kol. If the Gemara there follows the view of Beis Hillel because of the Bas Kol, why does the Gemara here not follow the view of Rebbi Eliezer because of the Bas Kol?
ANSWERS:
(a) TOSFOS answers that in this case, the Bas Kol contradicted the Torah's principle of "Acharei Rabim l'Hatos" -- "turn after the majority" (Shemos 23:2). In the case in Yevamos, the Halachah presumably followed the view of Beis Hillel, whose opinion was that of the majority. However, the fact that the students of Beis Shamai were sharper caused a doubt to arise about whom the Halachah should follow. The Bas Kol resolved the doubt when it proclaimed that even in this case the verse of "Acharei Rabim l'Hatos" applies.
(b) In another answer, Tosfos explains that the Bas Kol in the case in Yevamos was spontaneous, and therefore considered more "neutral." In contrast, the Bas Kol in the case of "Tanuro Shel Achna'i" was in response to Rebbi Eliezer's demand that "Min ha'Shamayim Yochichu," and therefore the Halachah does not follow its declaration. (Y. Montrose)
--- End quote ---
And some commentary @ http://www.torah.org/learning/olas-shabbos/5759/tazria.html
--- Quote ---
Kesef Mishneh (commentary on Rambam, ibid.) answers that there is a well known rule that, "the Torah is not in Heaven (Lo BaShamayim Hu)," (see Bava Metzia 59b). Namely, although the Torah is Hashem's, He endowed it to the Jews, at which point He "lost control" over the final outcome of halacha (Jewish law). When there is a matter of halachic dispute, Hashem, so to speak, has no say in the matter. All decisions are to be rendered by the Jewish Beis Din (court), even if they rule contrary to Hashem's own intent, to the extent that the Gemara concludes that even were a Heavenly voice to state that the halacha is according to a certain opinion, this would not change our outlook on the matter. (Indeed, it is this same principle that allows the "Heavenly Academy" to debate the matter with the Almighty, and which ultimately forced them to give over the final decision to Rabbah bar Nachmeini.)
--- End quote ---
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