On clothing, "peyos" and language.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

    clothing
Message:    I have never been correctly able to refute those who criticize my way of dress by quoting to me the story of Egypt where it says something about the Jews not changing their speech or way of dress. People tell me that this means that you do have to wear a white shirt, black pants, and hat and jacket because doing otherwise would be changing a mode of dress that was adopted by the Jewish people. My usual answer is that according that reasoning, we should all start wearing robes and turbans (or whatever they wore in those days) again. Is there another answer?

Also, I am not sure why you so vehemently attack some of the people that dare to question something you say. Many of the people who frequent this website would never have gotten here nor would they rely on the Rav if not for the fact that they questioned the things that have been told to them in the past. If they backed down every time that they were told that they are stupid, uneducated, unlearned idiots they would be like the rest of the sheep who go through life doing the wrong things because they are afraid to question. I respect your opinion on issues because I feel that you are different then the rabbis that I have dealt with throughout my life in that you have actually delved into things and tell them the way they are. I also acknowledge that most of the people who are asking you things do not know as much as you and are therefor, here to learn. In order to properly understand what it is that you are saying some of us may feel that we need to actually bring up some of the arguements which go against what you are saying (gasp!). This is not meant to be a position of disrespect but rather one as a devil's advocate stating what we have been hearing all of our lives and wondering why it is not true. Thank you for all your help.
    
Reply:    I'll start by answering you in order.
Rav Moshe has a Teshuva (Responsa) on the clothing issue, in regards to people coming from Poland and wanted to dress like Americans. He said it was fine. Jews that came to Egypt came all at once with a specific dress, language, and names. They were praised for not changing that to be like the surrounding Egyptians. That does not create a law that we must dress differently than non-Jews. It means we should not try to dress like them, to try to be like them. If the truth was like the way you described it, we'd be in bad shape. Our black hat and Jacket uniform was adopted from the "Al Capone" days. Look at a picture of a funeral in the 1930's, it looks like an Aguda Convention. The Chassidic Garb comes from the aristocracy of yesteryear. The language comes from Germany. If you didn't know, Ashkenaz means Germany. All Ashkenazim lived in Germany, spoke German, and were eventually chased out and moved all over Europe, taking the language with them. The names are not all hebrew. Ask Raizy Gorbachov, or is it Raizel? The Payos.... Yeah! the Payos?! Where is that from. I can't believe that Moshe Rabbeinnu (Moses) wore Payos and all the subsequent Rabbis, and there is no mention of it. It turns out that if any Kohen (Jewish Priest) served in the Temple with any hair on his head (including the sides) longer than 30 days growth, he would be deservant of death. The Kohen Gadol (High Priest) needed to cut his hair once a week, and the Kings were required to cut their hair daily. The length of the remaining hair after a haircut was not to exceed a length that any hair should reach beyond the root of the adjacent hair. Those barbers had to be very skilled. Payos, growing long ones, is a new Mitzvah. Where are all those people opposing new things?! The Rambam says in the laws of Chukot Ha'Akum in Hilchot Avoda Zara (I think it's Perek #11) that we should not try to look like the non-Jews. We should not dress like them, nor cut our hair like them. He says something that the Acharonim seem to be unsure of it's meaning. He says that you should not grow the "Tzitzit" of your head like they grow the Tzitzit of their heads. If he meant just plain hair, he would probably have said hair, although the Navie does use Tzitzit for hair. It turns out that in the time of the Rambam, around the 1100's, the Egyptians used Payos as ritual hairstyles. The children all had their entire heads shaved bald, all except for one long Paiya on one side. They oiled it to make it shiny. Then at some age of maturity, (could it be 3 years old?!) they cut it off and offered the cut hair as a sacrifice. There are many Avoda Zaras (Idol Worships) that included Payos within their dress codes. I surfed the net, and downloaded tons of pictures. I could not believe my eyes. Try it. It's fascinating.
This type of dress could have easily been adopted by the neighboring Yemenite non-Jews, and eventually by the Yemenite Jews. The fact that many Chassidim curl their Payos to look like Yemenite type Payos, leads me to believe that their custom came from the Yemenites. Yemenites don't need to curl theirs, it is naturally curly.
The purpose of clarifying these things is not to create a scene or make fun of anyone. It is to put the truth on the table, and to remind everyone that the main part of our religion is God's Torah, not all the additives that are not from our Gemara or Shulchan Aruch.
The craziness of teaching children in a language that they barely know, just to preserve it, is absurd. I learned the whole Bereishit in Yiddish. I didn't know a single word of Yiddish. What a bunch of nuts. So many of the Sefarim that came out by our big Rabbis were in the local language. Not to mention that the Talmud is in Aramaic. All learning should be done in the original hebrew, if possible, or you lose much by the translation. That is on the assumption that the translation is accurate. The Sephardim, thank God, preserved the hebrew language over the years.
In regards to respecting people's questions, if they ask respectfully, I answer like a Mentch. If they are disrespectful, or if they put a whole opinion down that shows that they barely studied the Seforim, I answer them appropriately. If we write something different than what you thought your whole life, we will gladly show you where it is written. Then you will realize that not everything that you thought is correct. If it were, there would be no need to study Torah, since you know it all already.
AA

http://kashrut.org/forum/viewpost.asp?mid=5546&highlight=hebrew

[muman613]

Just some thoughts Tag....



Apparently there are Yemenite Jews who grow Peyos too.






Even the well known Rabbi Amnon Yitzak, of Yemenite heritage, has grown his peyot...



http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/5/Q1/

Dear Rabbi,

I've always been fascinated by the dress of Hassidic Jews and wondered why it is that the men grow long sidelocks?

signed,

Curious in College Park

Dear Curious,

Let us approach this question in two parts, briefly.

First of all, the Torah commandment is not only for Hassidim, but intended for every Jewish male. The Torah teaches:

"Do not cut off the hair on the sides of your head..."

Vayikra 19:27.

A Jewish male must leave sideburns (peyot) down to the joints of the jaw that are opposite the ear, approximately a third of the way down the ear.

Secondly, the custom to wear _long_ peyot is mentioned in the Talmudic commentary of Tosefot (compiled in Touques, France, approx. 1300 CE :

"One has to be exceedingly careful not to remove his Peyot even with a scissors because they are like a razor; therefore the accepted custom has been to leave long peyot on children when they have their first haircut."

(Nazir 41b)

Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch in his commentary on the Torah suggests that peyot form a symbolic separation between the front part of the brain and the rear part. The front part is the intellectual, the rear part is the more physical, the more sensual. The wearer of peyot is thus making a statement that he is aware of both facets of his mind, and intends to keep them to their appointed tasks.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/224,1993229/How-long-do-I-have-to-grow-my-Peyot-sideburns.html

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Just some thoughts Tag....

Apparently there are Yemenite Jews who grow Peyos too.

  With this statement I assume you did not read the article I posted. He was saying it likely started with them and then went to some of the Askenasim. Read the article.

[Sveta]

So once a man grows out peyos, he should not cut them at all? I see men who look trimmed. Both trimmed beard and short peyos. And I am not talking about when they're curled making them look short. They should never be trimmed at all?

[muman613]

So once a man grows out peyos, he should not cut them at all? I see men who look trimmed. Both trimmed beard and short peyos. And I am not talking about when they're curled making them look short. They should never be trimmed at all?

I don't know what the Halacha is actually. But among different Chassidic groups there are different customs.

Chabad in general grow very short and they cut them with scissors. Breslov on the other hand prefers to allow them to grow long, and often braids them.

Chabad Chassidim


Breslov Chassidim


Yemeni Custom


As I personally associate as a Breslov Chassid even though I daven and celebrate with Chabad Rabbis I have been growing my peyos for several years. I trim them from time to time with scissors but I have no set rule about length or thickness.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So once a man grows out peyos, he should not cut them at all? I see men who look trimmed. Both trimmed beard and short peyos. And I am not talking about when they're curled making them look short. They should never be trimmed at all?

 If you read the article I believe you would come to the conclusion that a man should not grow them out to begin with.

[muman613]

I believe there is some mistaken conclusions in that piece you posted. But you are entitled to believe that. First off I don't believe any other people have a command concerning the corners of their head. I have not heard that any group, especially idolators, have grown peyos.

What I find odd is why does the author of the article go on and on about how the Kohen was to shave his head. It is obvious that this is the command only for the Kohen, not for the Levi or Israeli, and t he command for non-Kohens is to never shave the head bald as the idolators did when mourning.

Also the article does not include any sources for the opinion, so in my opinion it is only the opinion of the writer of the article. My question is who is this 'jeans man' who wrote the article and why should I care?

Also it seems the author was not aware that the Talmud certainly discusses the issue of peyos:

"One has to be exceedingly careful not to remove his Peyot even with a scissors because they are like a razor; therefore the accepted custom has been to leave long peyot on children when they have their first haircut." (Nazir 41b)

[muman613]

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-date/2005/11/?p=3162

The traditional Hasidic style is generally to have very short hair, except for the sides of the head which are left long and often curled. They may be cut, but not shaven off. The rest of the hair on the head is usually shaven off or cut very short by the most traditional Hasidic Jews, according to Kabbalistic teachings about hair. The side locks or curls are called “Payos” which means “corners of the head”. Many non-Hasidic Jews also have Payos, usually worn behind the ear in a less conspicuous manner. Yemenite Jews, who maintain very ancient customs, perhaps dating back to Biblical times, also have the long side curls. Some Hasidic Jews, such as the Lubavitcher Hasidim, do not have long Payos. Others wear them behind their ears or under their yarmulke. Generally speaking, Hasidic Jews never cut their beards (some do, but this is not the traditional way). Some other Orthodox Jews also keep this practice, as do the above-mentioned Yemenites who maintain the ancient practices.

[muman613]

Even Jonathan Pollard has grown peyos.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Just some thoughts Tag....



Apparently there are Yemenite Jews who grow Peyos too.

Ummm......


Did you not the full answer that was written?   

?
?

?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So once a man grows out peyos, he should not cut them at all? I see men who look trimmed. Both trimmed beard and short peyos. And I am not talking about when they're curled making them look short. They should never be trimmed at all?

lol what?   Where did this come from?  Howcome no one is reading the reply to the question which was posted to start this thread?

[muman613]

lol what?   Where did this come from?  Howcome no one is reading the reply to the question which was posted to start this thread?

I read it and it is saying that growing peyot is a custom copied from idolators. That is ridiculous. He provides nothing but his own opinion. Why does it say it was written by 'jeans man'?

Author:    jeans man
E-mail:    not available
Date:    12/29/2003 10:39:00 AM
Subject:    clothing

What is the original source of that? What sources does he provide for his statements other than his own opinion? I have, on the other hand, provided numerous sources and images which show that growin peyot is a uniquely Jewish custom.

Both of you claim so often that Yemenite Jewish culture is the most 'authentic' and they keep to Rambams Mishneh Torah. Yet this article claims that the Temeni Jews copied the custom of growing long peyot from idolators in Yemen. To me that is another ridiculous claim. The Yemenite Jews are credited, even by you, to have kept the authentic pronunciation of Ivri and yet you are supporting the claim that they somehow adopted Idolatrous practices? Even though this guy 'jeans man' claims that from Rambam it is a violation to immitate the hair styles of idolators? It is getting more ridiculous.

Anyway, I am sure you have some comments to make. So go ahead...

[muman613]

Find me a picture of a culture other than Jewish which grow long peyos?

Here is a blog where someone with as much authority as 'jeans man' discusses peyos:

http://www.torahtalk.net/index2.htm?576330

One of the things about Chassidim (and others) that confound the uninitiated is the concept of Payos, literally "corners." Some let these "side curls" hang "freestyle" down the sides of their heads, resting on their shoulders and below. Others wrap them several times around their ears, and others tuck them under their hats. The more "moderate" style of sporting Payos, also popular among many non-Chassidim, is to keep them relatively short, guiding them over and behind the ear.

What are Payos? Why do some people have them, while others don’t? Why are there so many ways to wear them? Which way is right? What is their significance?

Actually, EVERYBODY is supposed to wear Payos! So where, you may ask if you’ve seen my picture, are MY Payos? It really depends upon how you define them!

Do not round the Payos -- corners, of your heads, and do not destroy the Payos -- corners of your beard. (Leviticus, 19:29)

The prohibition of "rounding" is to cut one’s hair in such a way that there is one continuous circle of hair from the forehead to the temple to behind the ear, and all the way around. (Envision a monk’s haircut.) The prohibition of "destroying" the beard refers to using a razor blade to shave one’s beard. (As opposed to the use of depilatories and certain types of electric shavers, which use a different technique than a straight edge. -- The rules pertaining to the nuances of beard shaving are beyond the scope of this week’s message.)

Among the various explanations given for the Torah’s rules of hair cutting is that these were done by other religions, and we are required to distance ourselves from these practices. (Sefer Hachinuch) Ibn Ezra explains that it is appropriate for there to be a distinctly "Jewish appearance."

The bottom line, when it comes to Payos, is to allow a minimal amount of hair growth to remain at the side of the head. Almost everyone today, Jew and Gentile, fulfils this as a matter of course. (Although some of the "mushroom" haircuts would seem to violate this Commandment.)

What many groups, most notably Yemenite and Chassidic Jews, have done, is to emphasize this Mitzvah. Not only do they not cut the hair short, they allow it to grow long! In my neighborhood, I will often see Chassidim riding by on bikes or motorcycles, with their Payos flying behind them in the wind!

Some Jews, like the apocryphal fellow sited above, are uncomfortable seeing fellow Jews who dress in a manner that is so conspicuous and different. My feeling, although I don’t personally dress that way, is, what could be more Jewish! The Talmud says that one of the reasons that the ancient Israelites merited to be taken out of Egypt is that they maintained a uniquely Jewish mode of dress.

Actually, there is one culture which I think Jeans Man was referring to who grew a long 'tzit-tzit' braid.... It is the ancient Chinese.... But that Chinese Braid does not look the least like the side-curls which Jews wear.

You know how I know, for Purim my Rabbi dressed up for the 'Chinese Theme' as one of these Chinese wise men...

I got a picture of it...



Anyway, I may remove the picture because I don't know if my Rabbi would want me to post it.

[muman613]

Although Wiki is not the primary source for Jewish reference, the entry for Peyot seems completely true according to my understanding...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payot

Payot (also pe'ot, peyot, payos, peyos; Hebrew: singular ,פֵּאָה ;plural ,פֵּאוֹת‎) is the Hebrew word for sidelocks or sidecurls. Payot are worn by some men and boys in the Orthodox Jewish community based on an interpretation of the Biblical injunction against shaving the "corners" of one's head. Literally, pe'ah means corner, side or edge. There are different styles of payot among Haredi, Yemenite, and Hasidic Jews. Yemenite Jews call their sidelocks simonim Hebrew: סִימָנִים‎, literally signs, because their long curled sidelocks served as a distinguishing feature in Yemenite society (distinguishing them from their non-Jewish neighbors).

Rabbinical interpretation

The Torah says, "You shall not round off the פְּאַת Pe'at of your head" (Leviticus 19:27). The word Pe'at was taken to mean the hair in front of the ears extending to beneath the cheekbone, on a level with the nose (Talmud - Makkot 20a).[1] The Mishnah interpreted the regulation as applying only to men. Thus it became the custom in certain circles to allow the hair over the ears to grow, and hang down in curls or ringlets.[2] According to Maimonides, shaving the sidelocks was a heathen practice.[3] There is considerable discussion in the halachic literature as to the precise location of the payot and of the ways in which their removal is prohibited.[4]

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Can someone explain to me how this happens?

  (quoting a website with a question from a reader, answered by one of the site's rabbis)

"This type of dress could have easily been adopted by the neighboring Yemenite non-Jews, and eventually by the Yemenite Jews. The fact that many Chassidim curl their Payos to look like Yemenite type Payos, leads me to believe that their custom came from the Yemenites. Yemenites don't need to curl theirs, it is naturally curly." 

Bold added for emphasis.

(showing picture of a Yemenite Jew)
Apparently there are Yemenite Jews who grow Peyos too. 

I just don't understand it.  Is this a sophisticated method of trolling that is just beyond my comprehension?   Maybe you are sitting there laughing at me and at Tag when we reply to you.   Something just doesn't add up.    That was the motivation behind my question to you.   Nothing more.   

But of course now you have said more and prompted me to respond further.  And respond I will...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I read it and it is saying that growing peyot is a custom copied from idolators. That is ridiculous. He provides nothing but his own opinion. Why does it say it was written by 'jeans man'?

What is the original source of that? What sources does he provide for his statements other than his own opinion?

Ok, first let's get the stupid stuff out of the way.  "Jeans man" was the person who submitted the question to the rabbi.   Obviously he didn't want his name on the site so he used "jeans man" instead.    The Rabbi responds to the question (His comment begins under the subheading called "REPLY" which is written in red font).     He signs his reply AA which stands for A. Abadi (either Aaron or Abraham).   He is a son of the esteemed Rav Yitzhak Abadi and is a rabbi in his own right.

I have, on the other hand, provided numerous sources and images which show that growin peyot is a uniquely Jewish custom.

It needs to be stressed here that you have done no such thing. 

Posting some pictures of Jews wearing this hairstyle doesn't prove anything about its origin.   Absolute zero.   Sorry.   It doesn't prove or even suggest that it's "uniquely Jewish" and it doesn't say anything about its origin.

Both of you claim so often that Yemenite Jewish culture is the most 'authentic' and they keep to Rambams Mishneh Torah.

More lies and more fraud.   Why do you continue to put words in my mouth?  Very, very insecure on your part.   

Clearly these smears and lies come from a place of deep-seated insecurity and lack of self-confidence.  There is something that deeply troubles you about my fondness for Yemenite Jews and my assertion that they maintained a living tradition, and are the ONLY Jews in the entire world, who maintained a living tradition of correct pronunciation of certain Hebrew letters (not to mention the ability to identify the kosher and non-kosher locusts).    What is it that so bothers you?   Is it perhaps that Chabad, which claims of course to have the keys to the engine of all of Judaism, is lacking in something and that makes you uncomfortable as a follower of Chabad?   Maybe it gives lie to certain things you have been told?   I really don't know but don't care to speculate beyond that.   I just would like if you stopped putting words in my mouth.

Yet this article claims that the Temeni Jews copied the custom of growing long peyot from idolators in Yemen. To me that is another ridiculous claim.

This article says a lot of interesting things, some of which is speculation on the part of the author, but the true origin of the Yemenite peyoth is not mentioned - and the truth is much simpler.   The Gentile King of Yemen, forced the Jews to adopt this hairstyle as a way to distinguish them in appearance from the Yemenite non-Jews.  A sort of medieval era, middle eastern, gold star of David, if you will.   This is documented fact and in historical records.  Over the course of a long history, the Yemenite Jews kept this hairstyle and still wear it to this day, 100's of years later.    Of course, it is also documented facts that the Chassidic movement was a relatively recent innovation, and their use of the peyoth hairstyle was also a recent innovation added to Jewish culture.   On that point, the author is correct.   His speculation that they might have "copied" it from the Yemenites, could be correct or could not, but I would have to see some proof or circumstantial evidence to consider that possibility a likely one.  It could be an independent development which they themselves innovated to beautify a certain mitzvah we are all familiar with by now.  Or maybe he's right.   I would say that's worth looking into.   Would you agree?  Or are you scared of what might be found?

[muman613]

No, the article says that Peyot should not be grown. He says it is an idolatrous practice. Once I read that I know where he is coming from.

If he is a Rabbi you respect, so be it.

I think his conclusions are in error, and again the majority opinion is that Peyot is a mitzvah of the Torah and that it was a custom which has endured as a 'siman' or sign of the Jewish people, not as a sign of idolatrous people, as the article concluded.

Most Rabbis when giving an opinion will provide sources for his conclusions, maybe you can ask him to provide some references other than broad speculation.

[muman613]

KWRBT,

It is you who is the insecure one, who always supports postings which are anti Ashkenazi for whatever deep-seated purpose. I have never said a word against any Sephardi or Yemenite and listen to Rabbis of all backgrounds. You on the other hand always seem to enjoy creating divisions between Jews.

So the Ashkenaz Jews are not 'authentic' enough for you. So you think they copied the Yemenite customs? What evidence you have? None at all. The fact that the Kabbalistic sources discuss the importance of growing Peyot, in the books of Zohar and other sources, provide a good reason that Chassidic Judaism adopted the practice of growing the peyot, again as a distinctive Jewish style.

You are entitled to believe what you want. I don't think there is anything to this article which merits worrying about, it is simply an opinion piece biased by anti-ashkenazi feelings of a Sephardi rabbi.


You go ask this rabbi to provide sources like he claims he can... Then maybe we can discuss specifics.

[muman613]

Posting some pictures of Jews wearing this hairstyle doesn't prove anything about its origin.   Absolute zero.   Sorry.   It doesn't prove or even suggest that it's "uniquely Jewish" and it doesn't say anything about its origin.

You can show me some pictures of non-Jews wearing peyot as a custom? Ok, please provide them..

[muman613]

If the Torah commanded that a Jew wear a particular uniform it would have been explained in the Oral Law... Where is this uniform which you guys think is the 'original' Jewish dress? Our dress indeed has been influenced by the land we live in. And as long as we dress is a unique manner, we are not going in the ways of the gentiles.

Maybe this rabbi thinks we all should wear the dress of the Kohen Gadol, as he implies that we all should cut our hair like the Kohen gadol's hair was cut...

Here is a discussion of this topic on another forum:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-peyos-of-yemenite-jewry

[muman613]

I find this article explains the issue in a historical perspective...

Ask the Rabbi: A hairy issue
By SHLOMO BRODY, Jerusalem Post

Q Why do some hassidic Jewish males curl hair around their ears and refrain from cutting it (pe'ot or peyos)?

- Meïr Villegas Henríquez, Rotterdam, the Netherlands

A While pe'ot, curls of hair in the "sideburn" area around the ears, certainly appear beyond the hassidic community, they do not currently command universal observance, even within the Orthodox community. Many view them with a sense of ambivalence, treating them on the one hand as a sign of marked Jewishness, while at the same time as an aberration from the norm. This ambivalence, in fact, reflects this custom's long history that weaves together Halacha, self-identity and social realities.

The Torah commands, "You shall not round off the side-growth (pe'ot) on your head, or destroy the side-growth of your beard" (Leviticus 19:27). This short verse amazingly encompasses the history of Jewish facial shaving. The rabbis understood the latter part of the verse to prohibit shaving with a blade (which shears and utterly destroys the hair), leaving Jews to historically either grow beards, trim with scissors or tweezers or, as in Eastern Europe, to use depilatory cream to burn facial whiskers. (Being clean shaven, I regularly thank God for electric shavers!)

For our purposes, the first half of the verse prohibited shearing the hair in front of the ears, extending from the temple to below the cheekbone, or according to some, to the bottom of the earlobes (Makkot 20a). The most popular explanation given by Maimonides and others for both of these prohibitions contends that these shaving habits were promoted by idol worshipers, from whom we must distinguish ourselves (Guide III:37). Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra (12th century, Spain) alternatively suggested that, based on connections to Leviticus 21:5, these practices were expressions of inappropriate mourning. Rabbi Ya'acov ben Asher (d. 1343, Spain), however, criticized this endeavor to offer rationales for these (and other) commandments, contending that we accept them because they represent the divine will (Tur YD 181).

Medieval scholars struggled to define the scope of the pe'ot prohibition. Many scholars, such as Maimonides, contended that one may entirely cut this hair with scissors, provided that one does not use a razor (Hilchot Avoda Zara 12:6). The law, however, follows the opinion of Rabbenu Asher, who contended that one must leave some minimal hair, even when cut with scissors (YD 181:3). Much to the rabbis' chagrin, however, some Jews would razor-shave all of the hair in this area, or at best, leave a singular string of hair (Tashbetz 3:501). A number of rabbis condemned this behavior as an unwanted desire to appear like their non-Jewish neighbors.

Nonetheless, while medieval scholars condemned overly cutting this area, they did not require people to grow out this hair. Maimonides stated this explicitly, noting that the masses err in thinking that the hair should remain unshorn, like a Nazirite (Responsa 2:44). Moreover, as Prof. Yitzhak Zimmer has documented in a detailed essay on this topic, artistic and literary depictions by both Jews and non-Jews make no reference to the growing of pe'ot.

The famed 16th-century Safed kabbalist, R. Isaac Luria (Arizal), was the first to explicitly encourage Jews to grow pe'ot, noting that this mitzva can be performed all day for one's entire life. His students also promoted pe'ot as an external sign of one's Jewish identity, an idea which quickly spread to Sephardi and Ashkenazi lands alike. Under the influence of the Arizal, European hassidic Jews in particular embraced the mystical and symbolic significance of this practice. While some sects wear shorter pe'ot tucked behind ears, others grow them extremely long, to the point where many can identify the affiliation of hassidim based on their pe'ot.

During these centuries, however, an increasing number of Jews violated shaving regulations, both regarding the face and the pe'ot areas. This was particularly truly in central European nations under the influence of the Renaissance, Protestantism, Enlightenment and Reform movements, where men were increasingly clean shaven and in some eras, wore wigs. As Prof. Zimmer notes, the increased neglect of shaving regulations by some Jews only increased its symbolic importance for traditionalist Jews, as pe'ot came to distinguish not only Jews from non-Jews, but also Jews from Jews. Indeed, a government commission found that certain secular leaders forced Yemenite children to cut their pe'ot during the 1950 mass emigration period, much to our country's shame. This is particularly true in light of the fact that pe'ot were the subject of vicious governmental decrees by many modern enemies of the Jewish people.

Today, one finds an increasing number of religious-Zionist youth growing pe'ot. Some do so as a sign of identity with neo-hassidic spirituality, while others emulate the halachic stringency found in the haredi world. Whatever one might feel about this trend, it clearly indicates the continued symbolic meaning of our hair.

The writer, on-line editor of Tradition, teaches at Yeshivat Hakotel and is pursuing a doctorate in Jewish philosophy at the Hebrew University.

- See more at: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/02/did-king-david-have-peyot.html#sthash.qm1Q7G4e.dpuf

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No, the article says that Peyot should not be grown. He says it is an idolatrous practice. Once I read that I know where he is coming from.

So you are admitting that you didn't read the full response because you are afraid of facts?   What if that hairstyle also has roots in idolatrous customs?   Would that bother you?   What if it's true?      Have you seen the pictures he's referring to which depict it?    Why ignore the rest of what he wrote and then comment without reading the whole statement?

If he is a Rabbi you respect, so be it.

I think his conclusions are in error,

So if his conclusions are in error, does that give you the right to disrespect a rabbi?   Please elaborate.

and again the majority opinion is that Peyot is a mitzvah of the Torah

False.  Not one chacham believes this.   Not one.   The halachic requirement, which can be found in the writings of poskim, not by looking at people walking around on the street or looking at pictures, is that it not be shaved off (bald).   Leaving a tiny amount of hair suffices to fulfill this mitzvah.   Your statement is an obfuscation.

Peyot is a mitzvah of the Torah and that it was a custom which has endured  

You are contradicting yourself.   Is it a mitzvah of the Torah or a custom "that endured" ?   It can't be both.   It's obviously NOT a mitzvah of the Torah because it was an innovation by the Chassidim, and it didn't "endure" since it just recently appeared in Jewish history with the onset of chasidism.   Those are facts, whether those facts make you uncomfortable or not, facts they are.  Chassidic and Yemenite Peyoth are a custom.   And a custom not based in Jewish law or Talmudic legal discussions.  So it is certainly not a "minhag", it's just something certain Jews do culturally.

But Shabbat observance IS a mitzvah from the Torah.   That and other things are a million times more important than arguing over hairstyles and the origins of hairstyles which are not required.     The 613 mitzvot take precedence over minutia and supposed customs, so let's make sure we are strong in our mitzvah performance more importantly than anything.

as a 'siman' or sign of the Jewish people, not as a sign of idolatrous people, as the article concluded.

Ironic that you use the term "Siman" because that was the term used by the gentile King of Yemen to describe the hair style he imposed on Yemenite Jews.  He called them "Simanim" (signs) to distinguish the Jews from the gentile Yemenite population physically.

If there is historical evidence for idolatrous egyptians having hair like this in their ceremonies, should we pretend it never happened?

Most Rabbis when giving an opinion will provide sources for his conclusions, maybe you can ask him to provide some references other than broad speculation.

Source for which part?   He encouraged people to google search certain things he referenced about ancient cultures.

But what things specifically do you want sources for?   Are you sure you even want to look at those sources?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

It is you who is the insecure one, who always supports postings which are anti Ashkenazi for whatever deep-seated purpose.

False accusations.

It is you who misinterpret things I say as being "anti-Ashkenazi" (not to mention "anti-chassidic") because of your insecurity and sensitivity about those subjects.

I am Ashkenazi (so are most of my friends) and certainly not anti-ashkenazi!  Why would I be against my own family background?  Total silliness

[muman613]

KWRBT,

You google it... I already have... Please provide pictures of non-Jews who wear Peyot as their custom...

[muman613]

More information on the interpretation of the mitzvah to 'not round the corners of the head'...


http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/81570/jewish/The-Prohibition-Against-Shaving-the-Edges-of-Ones-Head.htm

Leviticus 19:27 states: “Do not round off [the hair] at the edges of your heads.” Our Rabbis interpreted the term “edges” to refer to the hair between the ears and the hairless portion of the face. Maimonides writes:1

Our Sages did not determine the amount of hair which must be left at the corners of our temples. We have heard, however, from our elders that one must leave at least forty hairs.2

One may remove the [hairs from] the edges [of our heads] with scissors. The prohibition applies only to total removal with a razor.

In one of his responsa, Maimonides clarifies that the forbidden area is about the size of a thumb. The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh De’ah 181:1) explains that we are speaking about the area where the skull is joined to the jawbone. The Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 170:1 states that the area which is forbidden to be shaven extends until below the ear, the place from which the jaw protrudes.

Although the person who violates the prohibition is the one who actually shaves the hair off, if the person having his head shaved moves his head to assist the person doing the shaving, he also is considered as having transgressed. Even if a person does nothing at all, it is forbidden for him to allow the edges of his head to be shaven.3

Maimonides4 considers this prohibition as one of the safeguards against idolatry. He explains that it was customary for pagan priests to shave the corners of their heads. Hence, the Torah commanded the Jewish people to shun this practice.5 The Chasam Sofer6 explains this concept further: Since pagans could not have their idols grow hair, it was customary for them to shave their own hair, so that they would resemble the images they worshipped. Others offer different rationales for the practice.

The rationale, however, is not significant. The prohibition is one of the 613 mitzvos of the Torah,7 incumbent on all Jewish males, at all times and in all places.

As mentioned above, the upsherinish is instituted to train the child to observe this prohibition. But the prohibition applies not only in childhood, but throughout our lives. And unfortunately, it is violated sometimes, unknowingly all too often. For when a barber shaves the hair at the side of the ears, a transgression, equal in severity to partaking of pork or shrimp, is committed.

In many communities, because the Torah singled out this portion of the hair for distinction, it is customary to allow the hair to grow long, thus creating the “earlocks” (peyos) that have become part of the stereotype image of the observant Jew. Significantly, this custom is practiced by Jews from such far-removed origins as Yemen, Morocco, and Eastern Europe.

The AriZal, however, would not grow his peyos below his ears. Instead, he would trim them with a scissors.8 The Lubavitch custom is to follow this example.9


FOOTNOTES
1.   Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 12:1.
2.   Some versions of the Mishneh Torah state “four.”
3.   Shulchan Aruch (ibid.: 4).
4.   Mishneh Torah, loc. cit. :1; Guide to the Perplexed, Vol. III, ch. 37.
5.   See similar concepts in Sefer HaChinuch (mitzvah 251).
6.   Derashos, Vol. II, p. 319.
7.   Sefer HaMitzvos (negative commandment 43); Sefer HaChinuch (mitzvah 251).
8.   Shaar HaMitzvos, Taamei HaMitzvos, Parshas Kedoshim; Beis Lechem Yehudah, gloss to Yoreh De’ah 181:1.
9.   Igros Kodesh, Vol. XX, p. 10.