Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
On clothing, "peyos" and language.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on March 03, 2013, 02:30:43 PM ---KWRBT,
I only respond in a harsh tone when it seems to me you are speaking to me in a harsh tone.
--- End quote ---
I honestly don't care about your tone. I'm a big boy. And I'm not fazed if you reply with personal angst. You don't have to like me. No one has to like me. I don't have fragile emotions and really don't care.
What I demand from you is honesty. It really ticks me off when you reply dishonestly. It's infuriating. Or when you reply without reading what I wrote. Or if you reply AS IF you haven't read what I wrote even though you did. It makes a discussion impossible.
--- Quote ---In my opinion you take things I write as a personal affront to you and your understanding.
--- End quote ---
It IS a personal affront when you put words in my mouth.
It IS a personal affront when you twist what I say.
It IS a personal affront when you reply with a comment that ignores what I just said to you directly in the previous post.
Not an "affront to my understanding" because like I said I am not fragile, I really don't care if you challenge my thoughts or beliefs, go ahead and put a source and challenge me. Call me an ignoramus if you like. That's fair game. I don't pretend I'm a big expert.
Just cut the personal attacks which pretend I said things I never actually said. Cut the dishonesty and game-playing. Cut the playing dumb about what I might or might not believe, when I just wrote it 5 minutes ago telling you exactly what I believe. It's these personal attacks and your attempts at "point-scoring" which make the discussion completely misleading and impossible to participate in.
muman613:
Ok, I will not put words in your mouth but I will ask you this...
Because Ancient Idolatrous Egyptians would also grow beards.... Does that mean if a Jew grows a beard he is imitating ancient idolatrous practice....
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on March 03, 2013, 02:47:30 PM ---Ok, we will have to agree to disagree because we are not making any headway.
The reason Jews grow peyot is because of the commandment (Negative 43 by Rambam) and also because of Kabbalistic understanding. It has nothing to do with idolatry... If you think it does, so be it... I have researched the topic and found that this practice has been a unique signifying feature of Jews throughout the last few centuries at least, and I have no reason to suspect any bad intent by our forefathers.
--- End quote ---
This is misleading language. "Our forefathers?" Do you refer to Abraham Isaac and Jacob? They did not grow out chassidic payoth.
Why do you assume that if a practice has idolatrous origins or similarities with an idolatrous practice, that it necessarily means our "forefathers" (by this you mean our ancestors of a few hundred years ago right?) had bad intentions? I would never claim such a thing. If anything, if an idolatrous practice or the apeing of an idolatrous practice of a gentile neighbor found its way into Jewish culture, it was probably by accident and perpetuated long before any of these ancestors began to comment on it and consider it Jewish. They were quite likely unaware of the origins of the custom. And again, the similarities with idolatrous things doesn't even itself imply that that is the origin of the custom. The origin is the gentile arab King of Yemen, and in turn, the Chassidic movement. Either independently in two different periods of history, or with some interrelation that isn't proven. Either way, no bad intentions on anyone's part (except the king of yemen).
--- Quote ---You can go and question all our customs and find that a lot of them are not 'ancient'. So too the custom of wearing Kippot is a relatively new custom. There is no biblical commandment to even wear them... Do you wear a kippah?
--- End quote ---
I do wear a kippa. I wear it to work and everywhere I go in public and in private. But I also know that it is not required. It is just a cultural custom of Jewish men. I'm pretty sure that Rav Moshe writes that when indoors a person can consider the roof of the building as the head covering and kippa is redundant. And there are many leniencies with regards to wearing it in the workplace, but I wear it anyway.
I know the kippa is not required, and I don't try to convince others that it is required. I see it for what it is - a Jewish cultural practice of Jewish men. I outwardly identify with that practice and Jewish culture and so I wear it. It is a sign of respect to God.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on March 03, 2013, 02:58:21 PM ---Ok, I will not put words in your mouth but I will ask you this...
Because Ancient Idolatrous Egyptians would also grow beards.... Does that mean if a Jew grows a beard he is imitating ancient idolatrous practice....
--- End quote ---
No. Silly question.
muman613:
KWRBT,
So I really don't understand what the big deal is about peyot. Nobody goes around telling people they must grow them long. It is not like I suggest to every Jew who I meet that they are in violation of the commandments if they don't let them grow to a certain length. Now that we have discussed this I believe you know that we are not to shave these hairs (specifically with a razor) and it has become a custom within Chassidic and Yemenite cultures to grow them. So why is there an uproar about it? Why does the Rabbi who you respect feel a need to cast negativity on those who are keeping this custom which has support in Kabbalistic writings, and what is his solution?
I hope you understand I have no personal problem with discussing these matters with you.
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