Poll

Which of these do you think is the best Antichrist candidate at the moment?

George Soros
3 (16.7%)
Hu Jintao
0 (0%)
BHO
6 (33.3%)
Gabrielle Giffords
0 (0%)
Dyke Doomberg
0 (0%)
Muzz Muzzie
2 (11.1%)
"Lady" Gaga
0 (0%)
Rand Paul
4 (22.2%)
Other (please list and explain your reasoning)
3 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Author Topic: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?  (Read 22045 times)

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Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2013, 02:57:19 PM »
I also agree with Brain, there should be a Christian section.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2013, 03:11:44 PM »
As a Christian member of this forum I think we, the Christian members, should be very respectful to the Jewish members and their religious beliefs.  We should post nothing that could be interpreted as proselytizing. That was the point of my earlier post. 
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2013, 03:14:04 PM »
I did not post in this thread for almost 3 days. I knew anything I said would be blown out of proportion. I saw your comments Dan and I was surprised a couple JTF members didn't jump down your throat for stating what you stated... On that point I agreed with you but refrained from posting for another day...

I agree that things in this thread have been mild compared to other threads.

One thing that non-Jews should understand about Jews is that we have been on the receiving end of a lot of grief from the various churches and Christian sects for thousands of years. Most of us don't know the 'good' church from the 'bad' church. Many Jews think that Christian Zionists are really only involved because they want to bring about armageddon (and all that involves)... But I do believe that there are many Christians who truly would like to see the Jewish scriptures fulfilled, and these Christian Zionists should be encouraged.

I believe it is possible so long as the Christians realize that Jews don't need Jesus, and we have a personal relationship with the Almighty himself. We do not need an intermediary, as Moses and the Prophets have told us. If Christianity works for them, wonderful... But Jews should not be shopping for another G-d as Hashem is a jealous G-d, and as his Torah promises the Jewish people will be lowered if we are lured to worship others. This is no comment on the beliefs of non-Jews, this is a comment on the need to keep the current Jews Jewish...

Muman, you were doing fine on this thread.  There are some individuals who are still sensitive even when you speak..even when you try to be as respectful as you can.  I don't blame them, but it's not your fault. So, don't get bent out of shape for this particular thread.  And to our Christian friends here those who in the past who have jumped Muman's throat....a lot of you are doing well not to do it this time.
 
For those of you who are sensitive even to when he talks..don't be sensitive.  We are all here as colleagues and friends and it never hurts to respond with a, "But I RESPECTFULLY disagree..."

The more we practice talking this way, the better and more viable we become in debating.  Look at how Rabbi Kahane was able to keep his cool even with the most left wing self hating Jews AND the most anti semetic Muslims during debates. 
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline nessuno

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2013, 03:16:07 PM »
 :crazy:  Didn't you practice Christianity?  You can answer all these questions for yourself.  I think you might have another motive for asking.
OK isn't there two intermediaries? Trinity thing right? Where does it say that a holy ghost is part of G-d? I've read the new testament, and I'm pretty sure there aren't any trinities mentioned. Is it a duality? Also, do you believe the part about demonic possession is true? It's never been observed as a phenomenon. By Judiasm, by believing these little demons exist, you would be giving them power, if they did.

Do Christians think it's the last generation? The "this generation shall not pass until all things be fulfilled" thing? Do Christians say that everyone but them goes to hell if they sinned just once?

Do Christians really believe that the "devil" is the "prince of this world"? If you do, how do you know you're not referring to him when you say "lord"? Also, do you believe that the "devil" is the prince of the air? Is that why people say "may G-d strike me down if I'm lying" but really its just the devil who's the prince of that too so he controlls it and apparently everything else? What does G-d control in Christianity, if the devil controls the world and acts against G-d's apparent wishes?

The cannon has been reloaded. I've never witnessed these alleged Jew vs. other religion fights here. Go.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »
When Christians produce a Meir Kahane with philosophy close to his, I'm game. I'm not here for Christian philosophy. It's really not hard to find everywhere else. You know what, when there are websites and organizations dedicated to the ideas of Rabbi Kahane, this site will be redundant, and then you can put all the things that everyone likes. Wiccan Zionists Force (WTF in french). Until then, it's not, this is the only place we have for this. You can have so many other places. It's not even like you'll "save" too many people by writing here rather than elsewhere.

Let's separate the forum by religions to promote unity. Seems legit. No sneaking to the Hindu page.

I don't care what you say, but I insult back. Unless you call me someone that's hurt my family.
What? I don't understand your post at all.
Plus...
I don't think we need separate anythings. 
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2013, 03:31:37 PM »
Ephriam, can I call you Ephy?
Can I call you @%#$+*?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2013, 03:32:08 PM »
The Christianity I practiced wasn't very Christiany, and I hated religion at the time largely because of it. Really trust me, you don't want to know. I ended up reading the book for myself. There is no Christian Talmud for my questions. Whenever I ask Muman he posts pretty little links and I get smarter. Also, rarely do I do anything for a single motive. What do you think mine is, entertain me.

Thank you 112... I post references to what I am trying to convey. There are a lot of great Jewish sources on the Internet. I use a 'Kosher Search Engine' for finding quotes which I post.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2013, 03:54:32 PM »
@%#$+* I am not trying to segregate members, I just think it would be okay if they had their own section to discuss certain things if they're not trying to proselytize. I believe our Christian members are fair enough to catch anyone if they were doing that.

Also were you trying to say I'm a witch?


Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline serbian army

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2013, 07:02:33 PM »
Because this discussion has been the best one so far on this subject I will try to take time to type some interesting things from the book I have.

"In Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of Persia, we have a good example of the development of a more radical cosmic dualism of conflict. The founder of the religion was the prophet Zoroaster, who according to Persian tradition, was born in the seventh century B.C.E....In any case, traditions relates how he was brought before the celestial assembly and was instructed by Ahura Mazda, later Ohrmazd, supreme deity and Wise Lord of Light in the true religion. The result of this encounter was Zarathustra's refor of ancient Persian polytheism, transforming it into a tempered form of monotheism centered on the worship of Ahura Mazda. What is significant about Zarathustra's prophetic revolution, however, is his dramatic portrayal of a cosmic struggle between the dual forces of good and evli, that reaches a climax in a titanic apocalypse at the end of time. According to Zarathustra, Ahura Mazda's supremacy and his Good or Holy Spirit-Spenta Mainyu are constantly challenged by Angra Mainyu, the Bad Spirit, and his satanic daevas, or evil spirits.....
Zarathustra did not himself teach a thoroughgoing dualism, for he had no doubt about the ultimate issue in the struggle between two powers.....

We know, however, that in the centuries just prior to the beginning of the Christian era, dualistic tendencies and historical pessimism found their way into Judaism. Philo, a Jewish philosopher of this time, speaks, although briefly, of God creating the world by means of two divine powers, one the creator of good and the other the creator of evil. According to the Rule of Qumran-one of the important scrolls from Dead Sea caves-two spirits were created by God, the Prince of Darkness and the Prince of Light, and together they rule the world. "
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Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2013, 07:08:28 PM »
Judaism rejects any dualism... I don't know what sects that quote was referring to, but they must have been the proto-christian sects...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2013, 07:12:27 PM »
Judaism rejects any dualism... I don't know what sects that quote was referring to, but they must have been the proto-christian sects...
I do!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2013, 07:13:29 PM »
Any Dual nature we observe is due to our own internal division. In Judaism we refer to the two forces as:

Yetzer HaRa - Inclination for Evil
Yetzer Tov   - Inclination for Good

We also have a Talmudic saying that HaSatan, the Yetzer HaRa, and the Malach HaMeit (Angel of Death) are all the same force... This force was created by Hashem to provide the 'battlefield' in our own souls to determine if we are inclined for good or for evil (lahavdil)...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2013, 07:15:03 PM »
Here this is expressed in a letter by the Lubavitch Rebbe...


http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/calendar?holiday=purim1415

By the Grace of G-d
28th of Adar, 5721
Brooklyn, N.Y.
Greeting and Blessing:

....The unity of the material and spiritual, to which I referred above, is also one of the features of Purim. For Haman's decree began with an attack on the spiritual freedom of the Jews, as our Sages explain the verse "But Mordechai did not bend his knee nor bow down to Haman," who wished to impose his idolatry upon all, and indeed succeeded, except for Mordechai. But then his decree extended to the physical annihilation of all the Jews, young and old, children and women.

That is why the miracle of Purim is observed both spiritually and materially, with light, and gladness, and joy and glory, which our Sages explained in a spiritual sense - Light that is the Torah, etc., and at the same with a Seudah, with wine, etc.

Indeed, the principle of unity is the essence of Judaism, since Abraham first proclaimed Monotheism in a world of idolatry, which came to full fruition at the Revelation at Mount Sinai. For true Monotheism as professed by us and as explained in the Jewish religion is not only the truth that there is only One G-d and none with Him, but that there nothing besides (Ein Od), that is the denial of the existence of any reality but G-d's, the denial of pluralism and dualism even the separation between the material and spiritual.

It is interesting to note that the more the physical sciences advance, the closer one approaches the principle of unity even in the world of matter. For, whereas formerly it was the accepted opinion that the plurality and compositeness in the material world can be reduced to some 100 odd basic elements and entities, and physical forces and laws were regarded as being separate and independent, not to mention the dichotomy between matter and energy. But in recent years, with the advancement of science, the basic elements themselves were reduced to several more elementary components of the atoms, viz. electrons, protons and neutrons, and even these were immediately qualified as not the ultimate blocks of matter, until the discovery was made that matter and energy are reducible and convertible one into the other.

It is well known that the Baal Shem Tov, the founder of Chassidus, taught, and the Alter Rebbe, the founder of Chabad, explained and amplified, that every detail in human experience is an instruction in man's service to His Maker. Thus, what has been said above about the advancement of science, exemplifies also the progress of human advancement in the service of G-d.

Man possesses two apparently contradictory elements, no less incompatible than the incompatibility of matter and spirit, the counterpart of which in the physical world is matter and energy. I refer to the Divine soul and animal soul, or, on a lower level, the Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Horah. But this incompatibility is evident only in the infantile stage of progress in Divine service, comparable to the plurality of elements and forces which were presumed to exist in physical Nature. But just as the appreciation of the underlying unity of Nature grew with the advancement of science, so does perfection in the Divine service lead to the realization of the essential unity in human nature, to the point where the Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Horah become one, through the transformation of the Yetzer Horah by and into the Yetzer Tov, for otherwise, of course, there can be no unity and harmony, since all that is holy and positive and creative could never make peace and be subservient to the unholy, negative and destructive. And in this attained unity the Jew proclaims, Hear, O Israel, G-d our G-d, G-d is one.

This is also what our Sages meant, when they succinctly said - as they often compress far-reaching ideas in a few concise words - that the words "And thou shalt love G-d, thy G-d, with all thy heart" which immediately follow Shema Yisroel, mean: with both your Yetzorim, with the Yetzer Horah, as with the Yetzer Tov.

With blessing
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline serbian army

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2013, 07:19:16 PM »
The religion of the early Israelite tribes was no monotheistic. Before the ninth century B.C.E. the patriarchs and the kings of Israel did not worship a universal Creator god, but rather, a tribal god who was nevertheless conceived as unique in power and moral authority. Henotheism perhaps best describes the religion of Israel in both the Patriarchal and Mosaic periods. Henotheism refers to those religions that, while recognizing the reality of many gods, worship and believe in the asendancy of only one god. The early Israelites lived in a polytheistic environment, but from the time of Moses they considered their God Hashem as unique in power and authority....The answer Moses received is a most significiant event in the history of religions. God said to Moses, "I am who I am." And he said, " say I am (Hashem has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:4-14).

An interesting story is written about Pharaoh Amenhotep IV who ruled about 1375 B.C.E. Can't write it as my fingers are starting to hurt.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2013, 07:22:06 PM »

Quote
http://halakhah.com/rst/nezikin/33a%20-%20Baba%20Basra%20-%202a-35b.pdf

From Bavra Basra 16a:

And Satan answered the Lord and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now and  touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face. And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold he is in thine hand: only spare his life. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord and smote Job, etc.4 R. Isaac said: Satan's torment was worse than that of Job; he was like a servant who is told by his master, 'Break the cask but do not let any of the wine spill.' Resh Lakish said: Satan, the evil prompter, and the Angel of Death are all one. He is called Satan, as it is written, And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.5  He is called the evil prompter:6 [we know this because] it is written in another place, [Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart] was only evil continually,7 and it is written here [in connection with Satan] 'Only upon himself put not forth thine hand.8 The same is also the Angel of Death, since it says, Only spare his life,9 which shows that Job's life belonged to him.

See also : http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5767/vayishlach.html
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline serbian army

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2013, 07:22:48 PM »
Any Dual nature we observe is due to our own internal division. In Judaism we refer to the two forces as:

Yetzer HaRa - Inclination for Evil
Yetzer Tov   - Inclination for Good

We also have a Talmudic saying that HaSatan, the Yetzer HaRa, and the Malach HaMeit (Angel of Death) are all the same force... This force was created by Hashem to provide the 'battlefield' in our own souls to determine if we are inclined for good or for evil (lahavdil)...
An eternal struggle between good and evil. "Dualism perceives the world as constituted by or as living under the ordering of two coequal, and often coeternal, sacred powers."
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Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2013, 07:23:56 PM »
The religion of the early Israelite tribes was no monotheistic. Before the ninth century B.C.E. the patriarchs and the kings of Israel did not worship a universal Creator god, but rather, a tribal god who was nevertheless conceived as unique in power and moral authority. Henotheism perhaps best describes the religion of Israel in both the Patriarchal and Mosaic periods. Henotheism refers to those religions that, while recognizing the reality of many gods, worship and believe in the asendancy of only one god. The early Israelites lived in a polytheistic environment, but from the time of Moses they considered their God Hashem as unique in power and authority....The answer Moses received is a most significiant event in the history of religions. God said to Moses, "I am who I am." And he said, " say I am (Hashem has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:4-14).

An interesting story is written about Pharaoh Amenhotep IV who ruled about 1375 B.C.E. Can't write it as my fingers are starting to hurt.

Is this your belief or did you learn this from a source? According to Jewish belief we believe that Hashem, the G-d of Israel, alone has absolute power over, and was the creator of, the universe...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2013, 07:25:06 PM »
An eternal struggle between good and evil. "Dualism perceives the world as constituted by or as living under the ordering of two coequal, and often coeternal, sacred powers."

But there is no "Good god" or "Bad god"... There is only One G-d, and he is the creator of everything we perceive. Even the labels 'good' and 'bad' are only based on our perceptions of what we think is good or evil. Humans do not have the scope of vision through time like Hashem has.

The only place where this struggle exists is in our G-d given souls.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2013, 07:26:25 PM »
Is this your belief or did you learn this from a source? According to Jewish belief we believe that Hashem, the G-d of Israel, alone has absolute power over, and was the creator of, the universe...
No it is not his belief, and don't know why it was brought up... The Church is against it!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2013, 07:28:58 PM »
Abraham (Avraham Avinu), according to our Torah, was the father of Monotheism. He rejected idolatry and was favored in the eyes of Hashem, and his descendants who would become the Jewish people would inherit the land G-d promised him.

No doubt the Jewish people through history flirted with idolatry time and time again. But as the Tanakh demonstrates Hashem views this as if it is infidelity, and he will forgive us. This is clearly evident if one reads the 'Song of Songs'...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2013, 07:58:13 PM »
But there is no "Good god" or "Bad god"... There is only One G-d, and he is the creator of everything we perceive. Even the labels 'good' and 'bad' are only based on our perceptions of what we think is good or evil. Humans do not have the scope of vision through time like Hashem has.

The only place where this struggle exists is in our G-d given souls.
It is one G-d, you choose good or evil... G-d has different names and elements...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 08:58:36 PM by אפרים בן נח »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2013, 08:08:01 PM »
Get the stakes and start the fire!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2013, 08:36:47 PM »
It is one G-d, you choose good or evil... G-d have different names and elements...

Yes, but these 'different names' do not represent any differences in G-d, only in how we perceive his relationship with us.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2013, 08:59:16 PM »
Yes, but these 'different names' do not represent any differences in G-d, only in how we perceive his relationship with us.
Yes,  I agree!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Christian JTFers: Who is/will be the Antichrist?
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2013, 10:28:09 PM »
What is the pic,  is it masada?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.