Should JTF stop threads focusing on "Anti-Christ", etc...?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Such posts by Christian members might offend Jewish members and when Jewish members respond, it could cause religious fights and drive away the Christian members.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

How about just saying "I was offended"?

[JTFenthusiast2]

Such posts by Christian members might offend Jewish members and when Jewish members respond, it could cause religious fights and drive away the Christian members.

Binyamin,

I'm just curious and don't mean this in an offensive way because it's hard to tell when we type and don't 'talk,' but why do you care if it's used in a casual way that people use in common parlance/conversation?  If someone thinks Obama is literally the "anti-christ," then I assume they have their own reasons for thinking of it like this.   We're a Jewish forum, not an absolutist forum.  They aren't demanding that we ascribe to the same idea or philosophy, right?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Why not just call him "the devil"? He is a devil, just not the Christian term that refers to the angel Satan. Devil just could mean an evil person in English.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The devil/satan in Christian theology and the Antichrist are two different entities. The Antichrist is a very evil person who will persecute Christians and Jews who works for satan.

However, there are also innumerable lesser antichrists (lowercase a) in our theology as well.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Binyamin,

I'm just curious and don't mean this in an offensive way because it's hard to tell when we type and don't 'talk,' but why do you care if it's used in a casual way that people use in common parlance/conversation?  If someone thinks Obama is literally the "anti-christ," then I assume they have their own reasons for thinking of it like this.   We're a Jewish forum, not an absolutist forum.  They aren't demanding that we ascribe to the same idea or philosophy, right?

Thanks JTFE.

[Rubystars]

I feel like I would be a horrible friend if I thought something bad was going to happen to everyone on the planet and I didn't tell somebody about it or warn someone about it because I was afraid it might offend them.

We're looking at Hitler version 2 on the way. Why would I not warn my Jewish friends?

I'm not sorry even a little bit if it offended people because you guys need to at least be warned in advance. Then if you start to see these things come to pass you might remember what was said on the forum and you might be a little safer because you were warned.

I hope that these things won't happen in any of our lifetimes, but I believe that they might, and so if I want to claim to be any kind of good person I have to try to warn people I care about, whether they're Christian, pagan, atheist, or Jewish.

[muman613]

My only comment, with no intention of inflaming the discussion, is that I agree that reading Christian theology goes against what I have learned a Jew should do. Maybe I am a zealot, but I take seriously the idea which Jewish sages expressed that a Jew should not learn about the ideology of other faiths. This is not because we fear that there is truth or enlightenment through other paths, but because of the fact of Jewish history that should young impressionable Jews read about these faiths they may be enticed to learn more, and find that they are encouraged to do so by missionary elements. Maybe some of you think this is a conspiracy theory, but in fact Jewish history has shown that when Jews are exposed to other faiths they are more inclined to assimilate. I know this through personal history, because most of my family has already assimilated. I am so very disturbed by this fact, and maybe it is why I seem like such a zealot about this.

I am sorry if this seems strange to you. I certainly do not hate anyone for not understanding why I feel this way. I am just one Jew but I feel a need to keep Jews Jewish and the way to do that is to make Judaism more interesting to Jewish youth. I realize JTF has had a hard time attracting and keeping good Jewish members. Even though this seems to be the case I have faith that eventually the JTF message will be spread by more Jews. Today I attended a Bar Mitzvah of a boy who has family who live in Eretz Yisrael. I know there is a generation of proud Jewish youth who will soon take the mantle of zionism.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Muman: If it is offensive to read Christian theology, why did you choose to enter a thread that was specifically directed to Christians only?

Rubystars: It's not just that, but the fact that I thought it was a legitimate conversation topic in the light of recent events and recent discussions by Chaim. Hindu Zionist has discussed JTF matters in light of Hinduism also and nobody thought that he was trying to force Hinduism on Jewish and Christian members.

[muman613]

I feel like I would be a horrible friend if I thought something bad was going to happen to everyone on the planet and I didn't tell somebody about it or warn someone about it because I was afraid it might offend them.

We're looking at Hitler version 2 on the way. Why would I not warn my Jewish friends?

I'm not sorry even a little bit if it offended people because you guys need to at least be warned in advance. Then if you start to see these things come to pass you might remember what was said on the forum and you might be a little safer because you were warned.

I hope that these things won't happen in any of our lifetimes, but I believe that they might, and so if I want to claim to be any kind of good person I have to try to warn people I care about, whether they're Christian, pagan, atheist, or Jewish.

Rubystars,

I appreciate your sentiment, but as I stated in a post previously, the Jewish people have been through so many 'antichrists' and 'beasts' that it is hard to believe that one person could actually fill such a description. The Romans destroyed our Holy Temple, killed many thousands of Jews and exiled us to the four corners of the world. We have been abused, tortured, and killed by so many governments. We have been expelled, taxed, and chased at the ends of pitchforks by angry mobs and had our synagogues burned to the ground.

You don't think that sounds like the end of the world? How many of these 'antichrists' and false prophets are we going to experience? I don't think that the Christian idea of antichrist is all that prophetic, as these prophecies were written in the Torah itself.... And we don't believe that there is any force which can stop the coming of the Messiah, the righteous redeemer of Israel. When it is time for him to come, he will be revealed and the world will know without a doubt that he has arrived.

[muman613]

Muman: If it is offensive to read Christian theology, why did you choose to enter a thread that was specifically directed to Christians only?

Rubystars: It's not just that, but the fact that I thought it was a legitimate conversation topic in the light of recent events and recent discussions by Chaim. Hindu Zionist has discussed JTF matters in light of Hinduism also and nobody thought that he was trying to force Hinduism on Jewish and Christian members.

I ignored it for 3 days almost. I did not want to read about it. If you remember I posted something like 'this is still being discussed'... Anyway, it is JTF and I like to read what is being discussed. I also did not take offense so much at the question, but more concerned about the discussion of the theology. The ideas concerning the nature of HaSutton and the concept of free-will and angels. I am concerned that there are other Jews who may read these things and never have heard the Jewish view on the topics.

I would take offense equally if the names and theologies of Hindu gods were discussed. I think I have said before, to the dismay of many, that there is a concept in Judaism that a Jew should never say the name of a 'foreign god' otherwise known as 'avodah zarah'. There is much discussion about what constitutes avodah zarah, but one thing is sure that hindu gods fall into that category.

Anyway, I am only speaking for my own personal view on this topic. I realize my view is the minority and yet I have to express this feeling. Apparently I am not the only one who felt this way.
 

[Rubystars]

Muman in your opinion or in Jewish teachings would a genuine Jewish Messiah require you to take a mark of some kind to participate in the world economy?

[muman613]

Muman in your opinion or in Jewish teachings would a genuine Jewish Messiah require you to take a mark of some kind to participate in the world economy?

Of course not. The Rambams law of Kings and Moshiach pretty much lay out the Jewish views according to our prophets of how the years of the coming of Moshiach will pan out. It includes the idea that there are two ways to redemption, the easy way and the hard way. The easy way (which most agree is not going to be the way it happens, unless we witness miracles) is that the Jewish people will make a complete Teshuva and the Moshiach will arrive and bring us all back into the holy land and rebuild the Temple. The hard way, which I believe Christianity says is the only way, is that there will be tribulations and 'birth pangs' of the pre-messianic era. And there will be a big war, Gog and MaGog will wage war against Israel and then Moshiach will lead Israel to victory against those who rose against her.

The Moshiach will need no numbers to know who the Children of Israel are. No need for chips from IBM or Apple, because Moshiach will be able to know who is a Kohen, a Levi, or a Yisraeli... So if any so-called Moshiach needed such tricks, he surely would not be the Jewish Moshiach...

Judaism also doesn't envision a 'one world government'... The whole world will know that Hashem is the G-d of Israel, and the Master of the Universe, and will come to Jerusalem to make their offerings to him, but they will still be Nations of the World, and Israel will still be the GOY KADOSH (Holy Nation). This is according to the Jewish faith.

[Rubystars]

Of course not.

Good! So keep that in mind. I didn't think so. If anybody asks you to do that, reject it! Don't take it! Fight it!

The Moshiach will need no numbers to know who the Children of Israel are. No need for chips from IBM or Apple, because Moshiach will be able to know who is a Kohen, a Levi, or a Yisraeli... So if any so-called Moshiach needed such tricks, he surely would not be the Jewish Moshiach...

I agree completely!

Judaism also doesn't envision a 'one world government'... The whole world will know that Hashem is the G-d of Israel, and the Master of the Universe, and will come to Jerusalem to make their offerings to him, but they will still be Nations of the World, and Israel will still be the GOY KADOSH (Holy Nation). This is according to the Jewish faith.

But the evil leftists/globalists do have a one world agenda. I was in college a couple of years ago and they were telling me that I needed to be a good "world citizen", etc. and then you have evil organizations like the United Nations trying to tell Israel what to do, etc. so you know any kind of globalism is very important to fight against because it's evil to the core right?

[Spiraling Leopard]

A thread likw this will only cause more religious fights. I don't see why it is posted.

[muman613]

Alright, one thing I think we all agree on is that Chaim has a message which needs to be spread.

I see a more Jewish Jewish Task Force, while it is true that Chaim wants to appeal to a wide audience.

I will try to put aside my feelings once again. But I hope that some people can understand that some of us Jews do take our faith to heart and as I explained numerous times my feelings about avoiding potential avenues of assimilation.

I don't want to upset the good JTF Christians. I do sometimes wish that there were more Jewish forums with more Jews.

So I will go along with anything JTF accepts, and I don't want to rock the boat. I respect Chaim and this organization.

[Rubystars]

Alright, one thing I think we all agree on is that Chaim has a message which needs to be spread.

I see a more Jewish Jewish Task Force, while it is true that Chaim wants to appeal to a wide audience.

I will try to put aside my feelings once again. But I hope that some people can understand that some of us Jews do take our faith to heart and as I explained numerous times my feelings about avoiding potential avenues of assimilation.

I don't want to upset the good JTF Christians. I do sometimes wish that there were more Jewish forums with more Jews.

So I will go along with anything JTF accepts, and I don't want to rock the boat. I respect Chaim and this organization.

If I didn't care about Jewish people I wouldn't be posting what I'm posting.

If you saw someone walking on some train tracks and saw a train coming up behind them, but you knew they didn't like you or your religion, and that they wouldn't be likely to listen to you because of that, would you let the train hit them or would you at least TRY to yell and warn them?

The train's coming, you just haven't heard the train whistle going off behind you yet. I'm yelling and waving my hands trying to let you know there's danger coming.

I can't make anybody do anything about that, but I can at least warn people. I have to care that much.

[Sveta]

Well, I don't understand the concept of the "Antichrist" so I will let those who know more about it freely discuss it and it's not my business if they talk about it or believe in it. As I don't believe in an Antichrist, it is not something I have to worry about. I am concerned with the yetzer hara, in anti-semites in defending Israel. In Israel keeping the miztvot and in all Israel having confidence in Hashem and in the coming of Moshiach. Other people have other concerns. And that is what makes us great, the variety.
In any events, if Jews don't believe in an "antichrist" why should anyone be warning about the antichrist? It like telling people who don't believe in it, that we need to be worried about him.

Was someone asking about Angels and demons? Or should we make a thread about it in the Torah section?

As far as Angels, I am not well versed in it but it would an interesting discussion.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I feel like I would be a horrible friend if I thought something bad was going to happen to everyone on the planet and I didn't tell somebody about it or warn someone about it because I was afraid it might offend them.

We're looking at Hitler version 2 on the way. Why would I not warn my Jewish friends?

I'm not sorry even a little bit if it offended people because you guys need to at least be warned in advance. Then if you start to see these things come to pass you might remember what was said on the forum and you might be a little safer because you were warned.

I hope that these things won't happen in any of our lifetimes, but I believe that they might, and so if I want to claim to be any kind of good person I have to try to warn people I care about, whether they're Christian, pagan, atheist, or Jewish.

But isn't that like Christian missionaries saying that Jews need to know about Jesus to be "saved" and "it's for their own good"?

[muman613]

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As far as Angels, I am not well versed in it but it would an interesting discussion.

I have posted several interesting threads on the topic of the Jewish view of angels...

Here are the links:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,60732.msg541178.html#msg541178

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,64626.msg564989.html#msg564989

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58728.msg528098.html#msg528098

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,65750.msg571989.html#msg571989

[Sveta]

Thanks for the links, Muman! I am looking through them right now.

[Rubystars]

But isn't that like Christian missionaries saying that Jews need to know about Jesus to be "saved" and "it's for their own good"?

That's a doctrinal teaching exclusive to Christianity. This is different from that in that I'm talking about events that may be coming up soon in the physical world that everybody of every faith will be able to see happening if they know what to look for. I think it's important to warn people if I truly believe these things are going to happen.

[Dr. Dan]

As moderator I don't mind it.  What I mind is when it goes off topic and there almost seems to be rep individuals at each other's throats. At least last time it wasn't so bad. I think we are learning how to speak to each other with more respect. So as long as we are able to do that with inter religious dialogue, I'm ok with threads that have respectful religious debates.

[Dr. Dan]

As far as if there should be a separate Christian section on this forum, I disagree with that. There are tons of Christian forums out there. There is really only one truly right wing legitimate Jewish forum.

[Rubystars]

As far as if there should be a separate Christian section on this forum, I disagree with that. There are tons of Christian forums out there. There is really only one truly right wing legitimate Jewish forum.

I think you're right. It would only cause trouble for there to be a section like that.