Author Topic: Hassidic circumcision ritual  (Read 23624 times)

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Offline Secularbeliever

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Hassidic circumcision ritual
« on: April 09, 2013, 01:05:45 AM »
I don't want to go into details but we have all heard the reports of the newborn dying from Herpes simplex virus transmitted by oral suction from the Mohel.  Do all Hassidic sects practice this?  Do non Hassidim practice this?  This disgusts me on more levels than I can describe. 
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Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 01:14:33 AM »
It is a practice which goes back 3000 years and the # of infants who die because of it are infinitesimally small. I attended my Rabbi's third sons Bris recently and it was done. I believe that most Orthodox Brit's include this and they all use disinfectant to remove all bacterial mater.

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/569,2173973/Why-does-a-mohel-suck-the-blood-after-circumcision.html

Quote
Why does a mohel suck the blood after circumcision?


This practice is part of the ritual of circumcision and it is called "Metzitza".

The source for Metzitza at a Brit is from the Talmud1 and is stated as the practiced law in the Code of Jewish Law.2

It is explained that drawing out blood prevents the blood from clotting and coagulating under the skin, which may result in inflammation and swelling.

The Code of Jewish Law does not explicitly mention how Metzitzah is to be performed. There is actually great debate amongst the Rabbis (today, as well as throughout the ages) regarding the details of Metzitza. As a result, some Mohelim use a tube, and some do it by mouth. Either way, to prevent possible transmission of diseases or infection, it is customary for the Mohel to cleanse his mouth with a disinfectant before Metzitza or before the Brit.

Footnotes

1. Talmud tractate Shabbat 133B
2. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah Hilchot Brit 264:3
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 01:33:11 AM »
It is certainly a horrible story. I just heard about this...

I hope that the children recover from it.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 03:18:11 AM »
I hope the send the mohel to prison.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 07:50:34 AM »
There is another thread about this somewhere on JTF which contains some good information if I remember correctly.

Only a small subset of people do this part of the ritual as it is not a necessary part of the circumcision.   A glass tube or just gauze can be used instead.
It was believed in ancient times that the suction of blood away from the wound would contribute toward healing and prevent complications and infection.   Let's be mature adults and see "metzitza b'peh" for what it is - a medical procedure.  I admit that at times I thought of this as "inappropriate" in some way, but I think only a sick mind really thinks there is something untoward about this - Medical procedures are not and cannot be "untoward."     However, we now know that it is not necessary to be done in that format as we have other ways of removing the blood, and likewise we found out that there are actual risks involved with doing it.    IMO anyone who allows the metzitza bpeh to be done to their child is criminally insane, given what we know and what the risks are.   There is absolutely no reason to put a baby at risk.

Muman, it doesn't matter how old something is.   It was thought to prevent infection.   But now we know it can cause a certain type of infection that could be deadly.   As such, there are other ways of doing it (glass tube or gauze), and many poskim say it is not an essential part of the Bris, just a health precaution.   If it truly was a health precaution, it would be essential to do it, for the baby's sake, but actually it's a health risk.   So it's essential not to do it!

And as per your style, he was asking about metzitza b'peh, and you put up an article about METZIZTAH, defending it as 3000 year old custom.      How about just address what he's asking about so that you do not conflate the issues?

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 09:55:07 AM »
I hope the send the mohel to prison.

For what?  Anyone who has had chicken pox carries the herpes simplex virus.  I might catch grief for this but I had a reform Mohel for my son's Bris.  He was also a pediatrician and did an excellent job.   
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 10:19:46 AM »
For what?  Anyone who has had chicken pox carries the herpes simplex virus.  I might catch grief for this but I had a reform Mohel for my son's Bris.  He was also a pediatrician and did an excellent job.
Because he contacts the wounded genitals with his mouth and lips. It is a high risk practice (not the brith, just the sucking of a drop of blood with the mouth) and it should be outlawed.

Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 10:25:10 AM »
There is another thread about this somewhere on JTF which contains some good information if I remember correctly.

Only a small subset of people do this part of the ritual as it is not a necessary part of the circumcision.   A glass tube or just gauze can be used instead.
It was believed in ancient times that the suction of blood away from the wound would contribute toward healing and prevent complications and infection.   Let's be mature adults and see "metzitza b'peh" for what it is - a medical procedure.  I admit that at times I thought of this as "inappropriate" in some way, but I think only a sick mind really thinks there is something untoward about this - Medical procedures are not and cannot be "untoward."     However, we now know that it is not necessary to be done in that format as we have other ways of removing the blood, and likewise we found out that there are actual risks involved with doing it.    IMO anyone who allows the metzitza bpeh to be done to their child is criminally insane, given what we know and what the risks are.   There is absolutely no reason to put a baby at risk.

Muman, it doesn't matter how old something is.   It was thought to prevent infection.   But now we know it can cause a certain type of infection that could be deadly.   As such, there are other ways of doing it (glass tube or gauze), and many poskim say it is not an essential part of the Bris, just a health precaution.   If it truly was a health precaution, it would be essential to do it, for the baby's sake, but actually it's a health risk.   So it's essential not to do it!

And as per your style, he was asking about metzitza b'peh, and you put up an article about METZIZTAH, defending it as 3000 year old custom.      How about just address what he's asking about so that you do not conflate the issues?

I have no problem with Muman providing additional information on the subject.  It makes his posts worth reading in many cases.  However, I agree with Kahane that this is a terrible practice.  I have vocally opposed any attempts to outlaw circumcision but this is a case of tradition trumping common sense which I cannot favor.
We all need to pray for Barack Obama, may the Lord provide him a safe move back to Chicago in January 2,013.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 10:31:02 AM »
For what?  Anyone who has had chicken pox carries the herpes simplex virus.  I might catch grief for this but I had a reform Mohel for my son's Bris.  He was also a pediatrician and did an excellent job.

 Reform mohel's are no good. Your son might have to go through it again. (Well just the drawing of the blood, but seriously you (or your son) should ask about it and take care of it otherwise he might have not gotten a real circumcision).

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 10:52:38 AM »
I don't want to go into details but we have all heard the reports of the newborn dying from Herpes simplex virus transmitted by oral suction from the Mohel.  Do all Hassidic sects practice this?  Do non Hassidim practice this?  This disgusts me on more levels than I can describe.

 Even though I do not believe that this should be done. The chances of dying from it are extremely rare. And about being disgusted, perhaps you and people like you disgust them more by your lifestyle and your ways, why don't you ask yourself about that?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 10:56:04 AM »
Also this is part of the greater war against circumcision. They want to bann circumcision altogether soo they bring these types of blood libels.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2013, 11:09:01 AM »
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/163298/AUDIO%3A-Michael-Savege-Slams-Metzitzah-B%27Peh-And-Orthodox-Jews.html

 Those reports were reported wrong, they have been changes yett the "news" still remains.
 
 And I am listening to this Savage, what a self-hating baal geiva.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 01:23:00 PM »
There was a thread i had before about this and an askjtf question.  KWRBT, answered what Chaim answered.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline Secularbeliever

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 01:34:25 PM »
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/163298/AUDIO%3A-Michael-Savege-Slams-Metzitzah-B%27Peh-And-Orthodox-Jews.html

 Those reports were reported wrong, they have been changes yett the "news" still remains.
 
 And I am listening to this Savage, what a self-hating baal geiva.

What was reported wrong?
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Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 02:22:53 PM »
I provided a good link which explains the reason that the blood is sucked the way it is. The article from askmoses explains that the method of drawing the blood is not explicitly described thus it can be with the mouth or with a glass straw. Both methods can, on seldom occasions, cause infections though. As I also said the number of infants harmed by this procedure is very small and certainly less than infants who are harmed through exposure to infectious germs at hospitals.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 02:27:48 PM »
What was reported wrong?

The Fox News article has some misinformation as no baby has contracted HIV yet from MBP. THe DOHMA has acknowledged that fact so expect a correction on that aspect of the story in the next few days.

 - The baby did not get it from the mohel, his older brother had it. Their are different ways that it can and is transmitted including through the mother.
- This came up before, bloomfag wants to and wanted to bann it. This is a halahic discussion and should be solely within the Orthodox Jewish community to decide what they do and want to do and how this should be done. Perverted reshaim should have no say on this.
 
 KWRBT although you do not hold of this, recognize that others do. And as such since their are things you do that others do not and you want and expect respect for your Halahic practices soo should the courtesy be extended unto others as well.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 02:46:06 PM »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 02:59:38 PM »
you mean the rabbi "muh diked" the baby boy?
 :::D
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 03:30:56 PM »
I'm still of the opinion that there's no legitimate reason for a grown man to be putting his mouth on a baby's genitalia.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 03:42:19 PM »
you mean the rabbi "muh diked" the baby boy?
 :::D


לך לעזאזל
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 03:45:15 PM »

לך לעזאזל

Seems like some people(ack) have issues with the entire Circumcision command...

This story is really nothing to laugh at though. No doubt the anti-circumcision forces will latch onto this and make it harder (or illegal) for us to perform the Brit on future generations.

I've been to several Orthodox Brit ceremonies and observed the ritual and every one has grown into a healthy young man...
 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 03:48:57 PM »
Seems like some people have issues with the entire Circumcision command...

This story is really nothing to laugh at though. No doubt the anti-circumcision forces will latch onto this and make it harder (or illegal) for us to perform the Brit on future generations.


 I notice how some of these people scream "Death to the Jews" and other such things and now all of a sudden they are concerned about the health of Jewish babies? Jews don't need to answer to any of them, this is a Halahic discussion and should be (and it is) addressed by Talmedei Hachamim and not ignoramouses on the street and media, be they gentiles or Jewish ignoramuses and/or reshaim.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 03:50:17 PM »
Here is a discussion of some of the issues involved:


http://www.torahtalk.net/Archives/576527.htm

TAZRIA (Leviticus, 12:1‑13:59)
"Blood Libel 2005"

I really didn’t want to write this article.
 
Often, the best way to react to negative PR is to ignore it.  When you respond to ugly accusations, you sometimes exacerbate the problem by giving a forum to a topic that does not deserve one.  I hoped that the story would die down and go away.  Therefore, I chose to remain silent.
 
Ironically, this terrible tragedy has been great for business.  I have received phone calls and emails from concerned parents in search for a Mohel who wouldn’t “endanger” their child.  After a satisfactory conversation, they have been relieved of worry, and happy to utilize my services.
 
Then, someone went too far.
 
I was examiming a baby prior to his Bris.  The father asked me about my methodology.  When I responded to his questions, he responded, “Good.  That’s terrible, what that rabbi did to that baby!”
 
"... what that rabbi did to that baby."  The story is not going away.  The lies are continuing to be told, and believed.  Now, at least within our forum of friends, I feel the need to speak out.  You, who are kind enough to read what I have to say on Torah topics, deserve to know the truth.
 
The truth is that a good man, and a holy practice, are being maligned in the press.  And, as we know all too well, few stories sell as well as those that trash Torah Judaism.  (See “Sorry PETA, Pig’s Feet aren’t Kosher!”)
 
I refer, of course, to the Metzitzah controversy.
 
At issue is the question of whether a Mohel has infected twin babies, one of whom died, and other children, with Herpes.  As a result, there is talk of governmental agencies regulating the practice of religious circumcision.  As an additional result, the country is abuzz with stories about this practice, and ridiculing Judaism with accusations of the worst kinds of perversion.
 
 
This week’s Torah Portion tells us that an eight-day-old boy needs to be circumcised.  That is all it says.  There are no instructions in the Written Torah as to how to do a Bris.  That is explained in the Talmud.
 
The Talmud requires that after a child is circumcised the blood should be drawn away from the wound by suction.  I have always considered this to be similar to allowing the area of a tooth extraction to bleed in order to carry possible pathogens away from the wound site, thus reducing the risk of infection.  Especially in view of the fact that a knife that LOOKS clean is not necessarily sterile, the requirement of Metzitzah (suction) is yet another indication of the wisdom of the Sages of Israel.
 
It is clear and obvious that the Talmud’s intent in insisting upon Metzitzah is a safety issue.  In fact, the Talmud states that a Mohel who does not perform Metzitzah is endangering children and needs to be dismissed from his position.
 
The most convenient method of applying this suction is orally.  (Envision the old cowboy, out on the range, sucking the poison out of a snake bite.)  Until a few hundred years ago, this is how every Mohel suctioned the blood away from the wound.
 
To be sure, the image of a rabbi sucking blood away from a circumcision does not, to say the least, sit well with the average modern American.  One may wonder whether a procedure, designed ostensibly to prevent disease, may do just the opposite.  In addition, the connotations of such act certainly seem to fly in the face of a religion that insists upon the avoidance of any appearance of impropriety.  Indeed, one newspaper article, written (of course) by a Jewish reporter, wonders how  “… in a time of concern about pedophilia and child abuse, an adult can be permitted to…” (I won’t dignify the remainder of the question with a direct quote)
 
 
Many years ago, opponents of religious circumcision used their objections to Metzitzah as an excuse to ban circumcision entirely.  Much of this opposition to Bris emanated from members of the Jewish community.  They claimed that circumcision was an antiquated and dangerous practice that modern Jewry should reject.
 
As a result of this controversy, the Metzitzah tube was introduced.  The Mohel would place a sterile glass tube over the site of the circumcision, and apply suction to the other end of the tube.  This method, which prevents a mixture of bodily fluids, was considered safer for the baby as well as the Mohel.
 
Many Torah sages embraced this concept as a way of maintaining the tradition of Metzitzah without compromising standards of sterile surgical procedure.  Others, who saw this as a departure from traditional practices, saw the Metzitzah tube as a threat to Torah observance.
 
The debate continues.  Many Torah authorities, including those under whom I have studied, see the Metzitzah tube as being in full compliance with the Talmud’s requirement for suctioning blood away from the wound.  Others, especially, but not strictly limited to, those within the Chassidic community, insist upon Metzitzah b’feh -- oral suction.
 
A twenty-first century mind such as yours or mine may be tempted to question such a position.  After all, with everything we know today about sterility, how can such a procedure be tolerated?
 
An article recently appeared in a prominent medical magazine calling for the cessation of Metzitzah b’feh.  The magazine claimed that a number of babies who had developed Herpes had been linked to their Mohels.  Many have cited this article as proof that Metzitzah must be done with a sterile tube.  Many others have questioned the findings of this article.
 
I am not going to comment on the article either way.  I would like to point out a different observation.
 
A pediatrician who treats many of the members of a particular Chassidic community pointed out that that particular community produces “a new kindergarten class every month.”  The Chassidic community, with its high birthrate, G-d bless them, does not, by and large, accept the use of a Metzitzah tube.
 
With the thousands upon thousands of babies being born in that community, one would expect to see a high incidence of Metzitzah b’feh-related disease.  They are not seeing it!  Their doctors (, almost all of whom are not Chassidic, or even particularly religious,) are not reporting it!
 
 
It has been widely reported that a Mohel in my community has been infecting children with Herpes.  Let me state for the record that this man, who has dedicated his career to helping people, is an expert Mohel.  He has traveled all over the world, especially to the former Soviet Union, to perform the Brisses for Jews who might otherwise not have had access to a Mohel.  I have occasionally consulted him for advice on complicated cases.
 
The story, reported everywhere from the New York Times to Al Jazeera, is that the rabbi circumcised twin boys, both of whom developed Herpes, one of whom died.  The Mohel has been under investigation.  Meanwhile, the New York City Health Department ruled that he could not do Metzitzah b’feh, pending the conclusion of the investigation.
 
What has been widely reported within the Jewish community, but not picked up in the press, is that the Mohel has fully cooperated with the investigation.  He has reportedly tested negatively in repeated blood and DNA tests.  It has also been reported that one of the babies had a suspicious rash BEFORE the Bris.
 
Rumors abound.  So much is being claimed about the details of this case.  Eventually it will all come out.  I believe that the Mohel will be exonerated.  But don’t expect the New York Times to report on that.  (“All the news that fits, we print!”)  Where will a decent and righteous man go to regain his reputation?
 
 
As you can see, I am on both sides of this issue.
 
I do not perform Metzitzah b’feh.  I don’t need to.  My teachers feel that it is not necessary.  When parents have requested Metzitzah b’feh, I have respectfully suggested that I will do the Bris and the father can do the Metzitzah.  When parents have insisted upon Metzitzah b’feh, performed BY THE MOHEL, I have respectfully recommended that they find another Mohel.
 
That having been said, I must emphasize that many great authorities whom I greatly respect have advocated continuing to do Metzitzah as it was done in the time of the Talmud.  Is it safe?  A lot of people who are a lot smarter than I maintain that it is.  (Many articles and books have been written on the topic of Metzitzah b’feh, attempting to demonstrate that it is actually SAFER than Metzitzah with a sterile tube.  I don’t know.  If you are interested in more information, you may click here and draw your own conclusion.)
 
 
I am very concerned about this controversy.  While, as I indicated above, it really doesn’t directly affect me and my practice as a Mohel, nobody (at least, nobody whom I respect) wants government intervention in religious practice.  But that is where we are headed.  That’s what PETA wants to do to Kosher slaughter, and that’s what the anti-circumcision crowd wants to do to Bris Milah.  They don’t want to regulate Kosher slaughter and ritual circumcision; they want to END them.  And, all too often, our biggest opponents tend to be Jews.
 
The word Bris means covenant.  It is a contract between G-d and Israel.  We must do His will, and He will watch over us.  May G-d watch over that poor grief-stricken family who lost their baby.  May He watch over an honorable Mohel and bless him with continued success.  May He protect us from all harm and disease.  May He protect us from government meddling into our religious affairs.
 
And may he protect us from all enemies; be they from outside the Jewish community or from within.
 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 04:59:57 PM »

 I notice how some of these people scream "Death to the Jews" and other such things and now all of a sudden they are concerned about the health of Jewish babies? Jews don't need to answer to any of them, this is a Halahic discussion and should be (and it is) addressed by Talmedei Hachamim and not ignoramouses on the street and media, be they gentiles or Jewish ignoramuses and/or reshaim.

death to the jooz...I mean poor babies.
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Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2013, 05:01:29 PM »
Seems like some people(ack) have issues with the entire Circumcision command...

This story is really nothing to laugh at though. No doubt the anti-circumcision forces will latch onto this and make it harder (or illegal) for us to perform the Brit on future generations.

I've been to several Orthodox Brit ceremonies and observed the ritual and every one has grown into a healthy young man...


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