Hassidic circumcision ritual

[nessuno]

bc3,

I am sorry you feel the way you do. The reason I bought this up was to make a comparison. There have been several infants harmed when doing the baptism ritual. I will remind you that a child can drown in a couple of inches of water, and thus baptism is risky. I also said that there are Christian sects which fully immerse the baby, and this is a truth as I can find several references to full body immersion. Maybe your church doesn't but there are those that do.

My comments are not hateful, but they are truthful. Every thing you accuse me of hate is a truth which you do not want to deal with. It is true that the Roman Church did a lot of damage to the Jewish people. This is history and you want to deny it. I have brought up Inquisitions and Crusades which the Christians perpetrated against the Jews, and then I am accused of being the hateful one... I bring up the antisemitic passages in the Christian bible and somehow I am the hater? These antisemitic stereotypes including the accusation of deicide and being of the devil are derived from the Christian writings, yet I am the hater.

I see a pattern in your responses. Anytime I bring up a historical fact concerning mistreatment of Jews by the church I am the hateful one... I already expected it from you...

But this doesn't change the argument. Judaism has kept the Halacha (Jewish Law) as interpreted by the sages and the poskim of the generations. My whole argument in this thread is that we (the Jewish people) must allow the halachic process to go forward without making accusations which are completely false (such as pedophilia, etc.).

Muman, you misrepresent Christian beliefs and attribute antisemitism to decent  people.  People that are here to support Israel and the Jewish people.  Many were here before you and probably left because of you.  I can't help you with the Crusades or the Inquisitions. Believe it or not...I wasn't even around then.  There is a pattern to your behavior and a goal.  I am not going to sit by and let you get away with it.  I don't care what you already expected from me or how you try to turn it around on me. I just don't like what you are doing to JTF and other people are too nice to tell you.

Here are some serious questions from a nurse.
What if the mohel is into pedophilia?  How would you know? (Since he is touching a child). Who checks his background? How do you hire a mohel?
Does a mohel get consent from the parents after explaining all the risks? Who oversees them?
Does the mohel have to be certified or tested, in any way, before he performs such procedures?  It is a surgery/procedure (even if it is religious).  How does he sterilize his tools?  Who checks that?  Since blood is involved and he probably has only a few sets of tools, if he has more than one... HIV and Hepatitis are concerns.
I never gave these concerns any thought.  For as a Christian, I would have circumcised my child in the hospital before bringing him home.  Now, because of this issue of sucking the blood...I wondered

Muman, those pictures mean nothing to me.  I don't care if you post a million pictures of Christian stuff.  You never see me do that here.  I respect your religion and I know my place on this forum.
I found a million articles about that blood sucking circumcision that make you feel ill reading them.  You don't see me posting them, eh Muman.

How about the pipette or ointment laden gauze?
 
 

[muman613]

bc3,

You prove my point over and over again. It seems to me that you are only piping up to make problems in this thread. The issue is whether Jewish law is being kept. If the mohel is accused of child molestation then he should be charged with it and sent to prison. But how many cases of that are there? Do the mohels need a certification? I believe they must be Rabbis who learned the process of doing the Brit, and among the religious communities they are very popular people. I do believe if there was a preponderance of evidence that mohels are inclined to be child molesters you would have a point. But you don't you are just speculating.

The point of the pictures was to show you that immersion as a way of baptism is still practiced today, and it was practiced by the RCC up until the 14th century according to several websites I found, most being Christian oriented sites. That you consider it an attack on your religion is typical.

It is wrong to make accusations which have no truth, unless you show me that there is any reason to suspect the mohels in the Orthodox Jewish community I will continue to trust them. Slander is a shady business bc3...

Concerning who is upset about what I have written, so far it seems it is only you and cjd who started throwing insults at me but demonstrating his lack of understanding of the mikvah, which is discussed in the Torah several times.

I will defend my beliefs bc3, and it is my beliefs and pretty much all of Orthodox Judaism who recognize that Halacha is the only word which we will heed. If there are problems with the mohels we must address it, but at this time I do not think there are mohels running around molesting children.

bc3, may I ask you why you are so defensive? I did not blame YOU for the inquisition or the crusade. And I doubt you feel guilty for those events, so what exactly upsets you about mentioning these facts of history? Again, it is not an indictment of you in particular, nor any of the JTF members who I respect. For the most part I have no problem with all good JTF members, except when things I say are taken personally which I obviously have no intention of meaning personally.

PS: Circumcision in the hospital does not do the ritual procedure.

PPS: According to searches I have just done it does appear that Mohels must be certified by a central organization in order to perform the brit milah.

Executive Director
and Kashruth Rabbinical Coordinator
Rabbi Moshe Kushner a native of Chicago was ordained at the Hebrew Theological College and holds a B.A. from Loyola University. Prior to his arrival at the cRc as senior Kashrus coordinator he served as director of Camp Moshava for twenty-six years. He is also a certified Mohel and has been a member of the cRc for over three decades.

Responsibilities Include:
Trucking Industry
Kosher Fest
Passover

(773) 465-3900 ext 111 • e-mail

[Sveta]

Wow this topic has gone for quite some time. And I must say, the response from some people have disgusted me.
A bris is an acient Jewish ritual. And I don't want to be rude... if you're not Jewish why  interfere with what a Bris is. If a bris does not apply to you or your sons, it is not something you have to look at or bother yourself with. It's been done since the time of Avraham Avinu. It just shows what nation was the one who was able to take on the commandment of circumcision and which nations were not. Obviously because the nations see great problems and discourse with it, great issues and over think it, calling it pedophilia, abuse, oral sx. Obviously Hashem knew this and did not give the nations this commandment.  Because He knew they could not truly accept it without going off on all the problems they are bringing up in this very thread.
Sure some people may call this condescending etc.... But you don't tell me that this is pedophilia. I would never look at another couple who used the other method and call it child abuse.

So, why not stay out of it since none of you are ever going to be concerned with a bris in your family. Not your problem is it? Nope.
 I am sorry for my reply- but I am offended and sickened by some replies. It's like saying "hey I love Jews" "but you're sick for letting pedophiles suck on your child's genitalia" nothing excuses it" Shows where some people's minds are, I mean they look at it in terms of adults and think oral sx but cannot for a second think that sometimes a person is so highly devoted to G-d that they are able to have a clean mind during the ritual of circumcision. Anyways, I apologize in advance for offending anyone.
 

[Sveta]

There is a pattern to your behavior and a goal.  I am not going to sit by and let you get away with it.  I don't care what you already expected from me or how you try to turn it around on me. I just don't like what you are doing to JTF and other people are too nice to tell you.

On record, I just want to say that I disagree. Well first, based on the parts I put in bold-it sounds more like both of you have irreconcilable differences. "I am not going to sit by and let you get away with it" get away with what? I don't believe there is anything or ulterior motives that he is trying to "get away with". And who has left JTF because of it (I don't know who has left stating that they quit because they just can't stand Muman).

The reason I disagree:
Muman is a great member of JTF. If we had a forum where everyone just agreed, it would be a very boring forum. Muman is valuable because he is a religious Orthodox Jewish man who brings in the Halachic/Orthodox/Religious view on the topics we discuss. But not everyone on the forum at the same level of observance of him. Some are, some are trying to get there. Some are religious but less observant.
 
There will always be a conflict in views between the Orthodox and the secular. It may always clash at some points. It clashes on the streets of Israel, with the ultra-Orthodox against the secular immodest people. It happens in religious neighborhoods vs secular places.
Obviously people forget that this is why they don't always agree with Muman. A few years ago, I would not have agreed with him. But being more religious now, I favor his view. I am in agreement with him over it.
So these other people who are too nice to tell Muman that he's doing some damage to the forum... I am definitely not included in it.  In the past, I have seen various members all gang up on him. All of them calling him a hater etc.. I forgot what thread it was, but I was really bothered by it, because it was several people doing it against one person. I think I said something then. At that point, I thought I was going to stand with my brother (not literally but in a spiritual sense, my brother) and I have since then.

So that's all I wanted to say. I respectfully disagree. 

[Dr. Dan]

Muman is not a hater. Bc3 is not a hater. Sometimes they disagree

9 pages is long. From metitza be peh to submersion baptismals.

Ill make a deal with the Christians. I say nothing about your baptisms and you say nothing about our circumcisions. You do whatever your religion asks of you and we will do it our way.

Priests who submerge are not baby killers and mohels are not pedophiles. Circumcisions and baptisms are not barbaric. Those who think both are and try to make both illegal are anti Gd. Those who are anti circumcision and want it stopped are anti Semitic. Those against just baptisms are anti Christian.

Muman and tag clarified their points. The mouth method was always done before sterile tubes and not for pedophile reasons  and if there are some who still do it this way it's not for pedophile reasons.  I just disagree with it if there is a better more appropriate kosher method. That's my opinion.

Anyway I'm now going to lock this thread.

[Sveta]

I agree with Dan.
And if he is going to lock the thread then that should be the end of it. Let the topic end peacefully.

[nessuno]

IsraeliHeart, I posted right after Dr. Dan.  It was not meant to extend the thread.  I removed my post out of respect to him.

[cjd]

Sometimes I really wonder why Christians carry around what they call the 'o l d    t e s t a m e n t' when they don't even open it up and read it...

Someone (cjd) erroneously believes that Mikvah is only for women... 

Honestly, I have had quite a few Jewish friends and coworkers over the years however I have never heard any Jewish male speak of going to something like that other than you... As for Bible reading it's not a big requirement for Roman Catholics...  I do have both old and new testaments however I do not carry them around.

[JTFenthusiast2]

On the one hand:  What I want to know is how is it that the Mohel is not imbibing blood???  Jews are absolutely forbidden to imbibe blood. Let's assume the world was only Jewish--just assume for a moment, I would not want any mohel be doing b'peh.  This is not a Christian/Jewish issue.  I would hope in an entirely Jewish universe that no one would be doing b'peh.

On the other hand, I cannot understand for the life of me why some of the Christians I like the most on this forum would say that b'peh is like pedophile???
Yes, I can see where people find this absolutely awful.  But I have to say, I initially didn't find Muman's comparison with esoteric Baptism practices a bad analogy.  However, when I thought about it, I realized that in order to compare it to b'peh, the Christians on this forum would have to be supporting submersion baptism of infants--which they are not.

That said, I am shocked that non-Jews would find b'peh remotely related to pedophile.  Honestly, I think people are blending the incidences of a fractional minority of rabbis caught in unseemly, illegal and pedophilic behaviors WITH the b'peh mohel.  Come on folks, there is no similarity here at all.
B'peh is the observance of an ancient rite, though as I think is obvious and from my many posts here, I do not think that this should be done without a tube, and without a filter so that no blood whatsover is imbibed by the Mohel, 

People that disagree with b'peh are absolutely not Jew haters, people who view this as pedophilia, honestly I'm shocked that people would think this as being remotely affiliated with that.

I also disagree with Israel Heart's comments.  We don't live in a vacuum. telling anyone to mind their own business about something they find objectionable is foolish.  If we follow that argument, then if you disapprove of abortion, we would tell you to mind you're own business and not have one.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't support b'peh and I don't support immersing infants. It's crazy to say that Christians can't criticize orally sucking the blood and that Jews can't criticize dunking babies.