Author Topic: The Ministering Angels wanted to say Shira at Yom Suf (the Red {or Reed} Sea)  (Read 5829 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
שמות רבה (וילנא) פרשת בשלח פרשה כג

א"ר יוחנן בקשו המלאכים לומר שירה לפני הקב"ה באותו הלילה שעברו ישראל את הים ולא הניחן הקב"ה א"ל לגיונותי נתונין בצרה ואתם אומרים לפני שירה, הה"ד ולא קרב זה אל זה כל הלילה, כמה דתימא (ישעיה ו) וקרא זה אל זה ואמר, וכיון שיצאו ישראל מן הים באו המלאכים להקדים שירה לפני הקדוש ב"ה א"ל הקב"ה יקדמו בני תחלה הה"ד אז ישיר משה, אז שר לא נאמר אלא אז ישיר שהקב"ה אמר ישיר משה ובני ישראל תחלה,
Midrash Shmot Rabba, Beshalach (Parsha 23):
Quote
Rabbi Yochanan stated, the angels sought to sing a song of praise (Shira) before the Holy One Blessed be he on the night that Israel crossed over the sea but the Holy One Blessed be He would not let them. He said my legion is in distress and you are saying Shira before me?
This is as it is stated, and this one did not near that one throughout the night, the Hebrew words
Zeh el Zeh (which means this one to that one) in the verse in Shmot/Exodus 14:20 has the same connotation as "this one to that one" (Zeh el Zeh) used to describe the praise of the ministring angels in Yishayahu/Isaiah (chapter 6).
And when Israel came out from the sea, the angels came to say Shira first, before the Holy One Blessed be He. The Holy One Blessed be He said to them, let my sons say it first, "Then Moshe will sing" (Shmot/Exodus 15:1). The verse did not say then Moshe sang. It says then Moshe will sing, to inform us that the Holy One Blessed be he, said, Moshe and the sons of Israel will sing first.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 04:01:48 PM by edu »

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Why did I bring this midrash up?
As one counterargument against one of the claims made by religious leftists.
If you are not familiar with their claims already, I do not choose to bring it up right now.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Why did I bring this midrash up?
As one counterargument against one of the claims made by religious leftists.
If you are not familiar with their claims already, I do not choose to bring it up right now.


 Yes unfortunately it is often stated (that we shouldn't be happy at the downfall of our enemies). It is funny and sad ow they ignore all of Az Yashir which is said every day!
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
I have heard it said that when the Torah says, in Az Yashir, that 'then Moshe will sing' is a reference to the age of Moshiach...

http://ohr.edu/explore_judaism/parsha/parsha_q_and_a/1467

Quote
To what future time is the verse hinting when it uses the future tense of "Then Moshe and Bnei Yisrael will sing"?
15:1 - Resurrection of the dead during the time of mashiach .

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/jersey/archives/beshalach60.htm
Quote

SING A SONG
Rabbi Reuven Semah
"Then Moshe and the Children of Israel chose to sing" (Shemot 15:1)

The Children of Israel at the Red Sea experienced such a thrill that it caused them to spontaneously break out into song. The grammar of the word 'yashir' requires study. 'Yashir' means 'in the future, they will sing.' But they actually sang! Why say "will sing?" Rashi explains that when Moshe saw the miracle, the urge entered his heart to sing. That is what the word means - that they will sing. However, this requires more explanation, because all actions of man begin with an impulse to act before he acts.

The Sefat Emet explains that they wanted to sing but there was a thought that was stopping them. What was it? Many years later there was a Jewish king, Hizkiyahu, who witnessed a tremendous miracle. The army of Sanherib that came to destroy Jerusalem was destroyed by Hashem.

However, he didn't sing to Hashem about this miracle. He felt he couldn't sing because he was so aware of Hashem's control of every natural event, that if he sang it would mean that only this miracle was from Hashem. This would imply that nature was not. So he wasn't aroused to sing any more than he would be from nature. This is why the Jews hesitated. How can we sing? Isn't nature an equally great miracle? But they sang anyway. Why? Because they knew that the reason why man doesn't see Hashem's Hand in nature is because man thinks he is in control. It is his ego. It is called "ga'avah." They realized that the true grandeur, or ego, is attributable only to Hashem, as the next phrase in the song says, "ki ga'oh ga'ah - I will sing to Hashem for he is absolutely lofty." Their own shortcomings made them realize how great Hashem is, and caused them to want to sing even more.

We learn that everything in the world sings the praise of Hashem, even our own shortcomings! Shabbat Shalom.

Quote
http://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3665

The Mechilta comments on the pasuk, "Then Moshe sang" (Shemot 15:1): "Is does not say, 'Then Moshe sang (shar),' but rather, 'Then Moshe will sing (yashir).' From this we derive the resurrection of the dead from the Torah." We need to understand, where is the resurrection of the dead hinted to in these words?

"They believed in Hashem." (14:31) Yalkut Shimoni comments on this: "In the merit of their faith, Ruach Hakodesh (the Holy Spirit) dwelled upon them and they sang song ... Avraham inherited this world and the world to come only in the merit of his faith, as it says, 'And he believed in Hashem.' Similarly, you find that our forefathers were redeemed from Egypt only in the merit of their faith, as it says, 'The people believed.'" We learn from this Midrash that the reward for faith is redemption, the world to come, and Ruach Hakodesh. What is "faith," and why does one merit for it to be redeemed?

We can understand this based on a passage in Masechet Bava Batra (75a).

In the future G-d will bring precious stones and pearls which are thirty by thirty [cubits] ... and will place them in the gates of Yerushalayim. A certain student mocked, "Nowadays it is not even possible to find [gems] the size of a small bird's egg, is it possible to find such big ones?" Some years later he traveled across the sea and saw the Heavenly angels sitting and sawing precious stones that were thirty by thirty. He asked them, "For whom are these?" They said to him, "G-d will place them in the gates of Yerushalayim." The student returned to R. Yochanan and said to him ... "Just as you said I saw!" R. Yochanan said to him, "Fool, had you not seen you would not have believed?! You are one who mocks the words of the Sages." He fixed his eyes on him and he became a heap of bones.

>From this Gemara we can conclude that that student was lacking faith because he did not believe in what he didn't see before him, or what didn't seem logical to him. Accordingly, a person who has faith is one who believes even in what he doesn't see, is not tangible, or he does not comprehend.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
This is basically the Soncino translation to Talmud Sotah 37a
Quote
R. Judah said to [R. Meir]: That is not what happened; but each tribe was
unwilling to be the first to enter the sea. Then sprang forward Nahshon the son of Amminadab and
descended first into the sea; as it is said: Ephraim compasseth me about with falsehood, and the
house of Israel with deceit; but Judah yet ruleth with G-d.
 Concerning him it is stated in Scripture,
Save me O God, for the waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no
standing etc.  Let not the waterflood overwhelm me, neither let the deep swallow me up etc. At that time Moses was engaged for a long while in prayer; so the Holy One, blessed be He, said to him,
‘My beloved ones are drowning in the sea and thou prolongest prayer before Me!’ He spake before
Him, ‘Lord of the Universe, what is there in my power to do?’ He replied to him, Speak unto the
children of Israel that they go forward. And lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thy hand etc.
For that reason Judah was worthy to be made the ruling power in Israel, as it is said: Judah became His
sanctuary, Israel his dominion. Why did Judah become His sanctuary and Israel his dominion?
Because the sea saw [him] and fled.
We see from this source that it was Israel who were considered by the Talmud as "drowning in the sea", during the night that the ministering angels did not sing Shira at Yom Suf.
This is a point to come back to when we discuss G-d willing and bli neder, the Talmudic selection from Megilla 10b that certain Jews like to distort in order to encourage us to feel bad about the downfall of national enemies.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 04:02:38 PM by edu »

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
This is basically the Soncino translation to Talmud Sotah 37aWe see from this source that it was Israel who were considered by the Talmud as "drowning in the sea", during the night that the ministering angels did not sing Shira at Yom Suf.
This is a point to come back to when we discuss G-d willing and bli neder, the Talmudic selection from Megilla 10b that certain Jews like to distort in order to encourage us to feel bad about the downfall of national enemies.


 Unfortunately I just heard that that was (one of the) reasons why Rav Ovadia Yosef says not to say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaot- because people were killed- even the Arab enemies and we dont want to celebrate when we kill our enemies (absolutely WRONG of-course).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Before dealing with the source from Megilla page 10 that certain Jews like to distort in order to encourage us to feel bad about the downfall of national enemies. Given my conversations with people who are confused about this issue I thought I still have to add a few more sources as an introduction. Some of these sources I arrived at with the aid of articles in Hebrew by Yehoshua Rosenberg and Rabbi Yaron Ben Dovid that I saw on the internet.
One source is Pirkei De Rebbi Eliezer (Heiger  - Chorev,10, chapter 41)
מה עשה הב" ה שלח
למיכאל השר ונעשה חומת של אש בין המצריים לישראל והמצריים היו רו צין לבא אחר
ישראל ולא היו יכולי ן לבא מפני האש, וראו העליונים בצרתן של ישראל כל אותה הלילה ולא
נתנו שבח והודאה לא-להיהם, שנ' וְלֹא קָרַב זֶה אֶל זֶה כָּל הַלָּיְלָה (שמות י"ד כ
).
What did the Holy One Blessed be He do? He sent the Guardian Angel Mikhael and a wall of fire was put between the Egypytians and Israel and the Egyptians wanted to go after Israel but they weren't able to because fo the fire. And those of the upper world saw the distress of Israel all that night and did not give praise and thanks to their L-rd all that night, for it was stated and this one did not near that one throughout the night, (Shmot/Exodus 14:20)
and similarly another source that points out that it was Israel's distress that delayed the Angels from saying Shira is in Midrash Tanchuma(Buber edition) on Beshalach 13

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
An even more interesting source as an introduction to Megilla page 10 is:
מכילתא דרבי ישמעאל בשלח פרשה ו
ובני ישראל הלכו ביבשה בתוך הים, והיו מלאכי השרת תמהים לומר בני אדם עובדי עבודה זרה מהלכין ביבשה בתוך הים ומנין שאף הים נתמלא עליהם חמה שנ' והמים להם חומה אל תקרי חומה אלא חמה ומי גרם להם לישראל להנצל מימינם ומשמאלם מימינם בזכות התורה שעתידין לקבל מימינם שנאמר מימינו אש דת למו ומשמאלם זו תפלה... אמר הקדוש ברוך הוא כשם שששתי על המצרים לאבדם כך כמעט ששתי על ישראל לאבדם ומי גרם להם שינצלו מימינם ומשמאלם.
 
Quote
Mechilta deRebbe Yishmael Bshalach Parsha 6.
And the children of Israel walked in the dry land amidst the sea, and the ministering angels were astonished saying people who are idol worshipers are walking in the dry land within the sea. And where do we know that even the sea was filled up with wrath against them, for it was stated and the water was for them as a Choma (literally wall) Do not read it in the literal way as Choma but rather Chaima that is to say wrath! And what caused Israel to be saved? From their right and from their left. From their right in the merit of the Torah that in the future they would receive from their right as it is stated, from his right a fiery law (or religion) (Dvarim/Deut.33:2) and from his left this is prayer...Said the Holy One Blessed Be He in the same way that I rejoiced over Egypt to eliminate them, thus I was nearly happy over Israel to eliminate them, but what caused them to be saved, from their right and from their left.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
With all the introductions that I have given so far now I will go into the source from Megilla page 10b, using mostly the Soncino Translation
One should be aware that the focus of the discussions in tractate Megilla tend to be centered on issues relating to Megillat Esther.
For example, the issue that is being discussed in the Talmud that I will soon quote revolves around the question, Was G-d initially happy with Haman's Genocide decree (that is to say before the Jews repented)?
Quote
R. Yehoshua b. Levi introduced his discourse on this section with the following text: "And it shall
come to pass that as the L-rd rejoiced over you to do you good, so the L-rd will rejoice over you to
cause you to perish" (Devarim/Deut. XXVIII, 63). Now does the Holy One, blessed be He, rejoice in the downfall of the wicked?
Is it not written, as they went out before the army, and say, Give thanks unto the L-rd, for his mercy endureth for ever’ (Divrei Hayamim/II Chron. XX, 21), and R. Yochanan said, Why are the words ‘for he is good’ omitted from this thanksgiving? Because the Holy One, blessed be He, does not rejoice in the downfall of the wicked?
And R. Yochanan further said, What is the meaning of the verse, "And this one did not near that one throughout the night" (Shmot/Exodus 14:20)? The ministering angels wanted to chant their hymns, but the Holy One, blessed be He, said, The work of my hands is being drowned in the sea, and shall you chant hymns? — R. Eleazar replied: He himself does not rejoice, but he makes others rejoice. This is indicated also by the text,
which writes yasis and not yasus; which proves [what we said].
[A Soncino footnote explains Yasis is a hif'il form, and should properly mean ‘cause to rejoice’, though it is often used as equivalent to the kal, yasus rejoice’. ] Yasis is the Hebrew word used in Devarim/Deut. XXVIII, 63 quoted above.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Yehoshua Rosenberg explains that all the examples that the Talmud points to, as examples of G-d not personally rejoicing over the downfall of the wicked are dealing with the wicked of Israel.
The quote for example "And it shall come to pass that as the L-rd rejoiced over you to do you good, so the L-rd will rejoice over you to cause you to perish" (Devarim/Deut. XXVIII, 63)
refers to the nation of Israel, who are receiving curses for not observing the Torah properly.
The Talmud will come to the conclusion that the verse really should not be understood as G-d personally rejoicing over the downfall of the wicked of Israel but rather he will cause others, such as Haman, to rejoice.
Similarly, the 2nd example brought by the Talmud, namely, Divrei Hayamim/II Chron. XX, 21 also should be understood as G-d not being happy with the downfall of the wicked of Israel.
This needs further elaboration but I will come back to explain it after going on to the third example of G-d not being, happy with the downfall of the wicked of Israel.
The third example brought by the Talmud, is that G-d prevented the ministering angels from singing Shira, throughout the night that Israel was in distress and in danger of drowning in Yom Suf (Red or Reed Sea). We know the focus is on the distress of Israel and not of the Egyptians, because, Rabbi Yochanan, who is quoted in the Talmud as the source for the statement, "That the work of my hands is drowning in the sea", explains elsewhere, such as the source I brought above
from Midrash Shmot Rabba, Beshalach (Parsha 23): that the work of my hands is a reference to Israel being under the threat of drowning.
In contrast to the ideology of left-wing humanists, once Israel escapes from the danger and the Egyptians are drowned, G-d according to Rabbi Yochanan actually demands Shira from the ministering angels, but only after the nation of Israel has sung G-d's praise as I brought above  from Midrash Shmot Rabba, Beshalach (Parsha 23):
And so too in Mechilta de Rebbi Yishmael (B'shalach parsha 1) "Rabbi Meir said...And not only Israel said Shira before G-d but also even the ministering angels:
And so too does, Midrash Tanchuma, Beshalach, Siman 13 and Tosefta Sota 6, (see the words of Rabbi Yosi Haglili) assert that after Israel was saved and the Egyptians drowned, the Ministering angels participated in Shira.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
edu,

I understand what you are saying but there are many questions.

The Shuir Az Yashir clearly says that the Children of Israel walked on the dry seabed and were pursued by the Mitzrim, who were drowned in the sea. Nowhere do I see any discussion of Israel drowning in the sea. What I have learned is that at the sea there were three camps which formed, some said they should return to Israel, others said they were prepared to die, and others prayed to Hashem. When Nachshon waded into the sea to his nostrils, because of his merit, the sea began to split.

I have never heard that Hashem was angry at the Children of Israel at this point. He told Moses to stop praying and move into the sea, and he would provide the miracle. If, according to your explanation, Hashem was angry at Israel why did he split the sea?

The Children of Israel who left were meritorious for being taken out. All those who were not meritorious perished in the darkness. While I definately believe that Hashem wished to destroy the Egyptians because of their wickedness, in order to make his name known in the world. So too he brought all the destruction to Egypt because of their ill treatment of them during their exile.

Your explanation leaves many questions as to why Hashem would even bring us out.

Although I do agree that Hashem was angry at the generation of Mordechai for their losing emmunah so quickly (70 years). Thus the decree of Haman was actually a decree from Hashem...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Muman613 I will briefly repeat part of 2 sources that I have already quoted
Quote
‘My beloved ones are drowning in the sea and thou prolongest prayer before Me!’ (Sotah 37a)
Mechilta deRebbe Yishmael Bshalach Parsha 6.
Quote
And the children of Israel walked in the dry land amidst the sea, and the ministering angels were astonished saying people who are idol worshipers are walking in the dry land within the sea. And where do we know that even the sea was filled up with wrath against them, for it was stated and the water was for them as a Choma (literally wall) Do not read it in the literal way as Choma but rather Chaima that is to say wrath! And what caused Israel to be saved? From their right and from their left. From their right in the merit of the Torah that in the future they would receive from their right as it is stated, from his right a fiery law (or religion) (Dvarim/Deut.33:2) and from his left this is prayer...Said the Holy One Blessed Be He in the same way that I rejoiced over Egypt to eliminate them, thus I was nearly happy over Israel to eliminate them, but what caused them to be saved, from their right and from their left.
I will add to these sources what Rashi says on Shmot/Exodus 19:14 : "This teaches us that Israel was placed under judgement at that moment, whether to be saved or to perish together with the Egyptians". And so too does Mechilta deRebbe Yishmael comment on that verse and so too Pesikta Zutarta (Lekach Tov) and midrash sekel tov and Yalkut Shimoni
ילקוט שמעוני תורה פרשת בשלח רמז רלג

, שאל רבי נתן את רבי שמעון בן יוחאי בכל מקום הוא אומר וימצאה מלאך ה' ויאמר לה מלאך ה' וירא מלאך ה' וכאן הוא אומר מלאך האלקים, אמר לו אין אלקים בכל מקום אלא דין מגיד הכתוב שהיו ישראל נתונים בדין באותה שעה אם להנצל אם ליאבד עם מצריים
What you said Muman613 and I quote is not entirely correct:
Quote
The Children of Israel who left were meritorious for being taken out. All those who were not meritorious perished in the darkness.
What Rashi says is that the Jews who did not want to leave Egypt were killed in the plague of darkness. That is not to say everyone who was left was a Tzaddik. Among those that were left for example, was Datan and Aviram.
Later I will bring more sources G-d willing, on the low spiritual level that the Israelites who survived the plague of darkness were on.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Although I could bring other sources or interpret the one I am bringing slightly differently for the sake of ease I am quoting from
http://dafyomireview.com/rebnissan/Kesher_Shel_Kayama/036-2012-Beshalach-English.pdf
Quote
"And the Bnai Yisroel came within the sea on dry land, and the water
became a wall
on their right and on their left"
"The Bnai Yisroel went on dry land in middle of the sea, and the water
was a wall for them on their right and on their left."
There are two differences between these pesukim that need to be
addressed. Why does the posuk first say they came in the sea on dry
land, and in the second posuk the order is reversed, they went on dry
land in middle of the sea. Also the world "choma" is spelled in the first
posuk with a vav and in the second posuk the vav is absent. What are
these
differences here coming to teach us?
The Vilna Goan brings a Medresh that the Idol of Micha crossed
through the Yam Suf with the Bnai Yisroel. Obviously this can't mean
the actual Pesel Micha as that
Idol was not created
until the days of the Judges.
Rather explains the Goan the Medresh is telling us that
there were those amongst the Bnai Yisroel that had thoughts of idol
worship even while crossing the sea. And as Chazal teach us, although
normally one who thinks of a sin does not get judged as having
actually done it, if one thinks of Idol worship it is as if he indeed
served those idols.
The Goan tells us that these people were found amongst Shevet Dan.
The Shevet of Dan was the last Shevet in the formation of the Bnai
Yisroel through the Midbar and was
therefore the last one to cross the
sea. Now we can understand these two pesukim. The Goan is learning
that the Bnai Yisroel crossed the Red Sea as a single column of people.
Therefore as the first group was crossing the sea the last ones were
still on dry
land. And as the first group
arrived
on dry land
the last
group was still in the sea.
This is wording of the pesukim; "and the Bnai Yisroel came within the
sea on dry land", meaning that the first group was in the sea while the
remainder was still on dry
land being yet to enter the split sea. The
second posuk describes a later moment as the first group already
exited and the end of the column was still crossing through the sea,
"the Bnai Yisroel went on dry land in middle of the sea".
The Medresh tells us
that at the time of Krias Yam Suf the Angels
protested that the Bnai Yisroel were
being
saved and the Egyptians
killed. Both serve idols they argued, why are you only saving the
Bnai Yisroel? To which Hashem answered the Bnai Yisroel trust in me and
are therefore worthy of me saving them.
Now we can understand the missing Vav. The Ibam Ezra explains that
Choma without a Vav is read as Chaima

anger. The water rose in
anger around the Bnai Yisroel.
Therefore as the first group was crossing the sea, the idol worshippers
were still on dry land, so the water around them was as firm as a wall,
for these people were indeed worthy of being saved. However as the
latter groups to cross were in the sea and the former group had
already exited the water rose up in fury, as it was these people that
had thoughts of idol worship and on these people the Angels
protested.
We can explain this in a slightly different manner as well. The Angels
protested that both the Egyptians and the Bnai Yisroel were serving
idols, to which Hashem retorted but they have complete faith in me. It
was only the first group who jumped into the sea

before it split –that we can say on them that they had complete trust in Hashem.
Everyone else entered on what was already dry land.
Now we can read the pesukim, as the first people entered the posuk
says"And the Bnai Yisroel came within the sea on dry land
", for these people actually leapt into the sea,
and on these people the posuk says the water formed a wall, because they displayed complete
 faith in Hashem leaving the Angels silent.
As the latter people crossed the posuk says, "The Bnai Yisroel went on
dry land in middle of the sea". These people simply went were they
thought it was safe, they did not display the same faith in Hashem;
therefore the sea rose up in protest, "both serve idols"!
For this reason the vav is missing, to show the protest of the Angels as to why
the Bnai Yisroel was being saved and the Egyptians drowned.
Rav Yosef Shaul, the Author of the Shoel U'maishiv, also goes with a
similar approach. As long as the Egyptians were not yet drowning
 the Angels remained silent. Therefore as the first group crossed the
Egyptians were still on dry land, the posuk therefore says the water
was a wall.
As the Bnai Yisroel exited on one end and the Egyptians entered and
began to drown, it was then that the Angels spoke up, "didn't the Bnai
Yisroel also serve idols"? Therefore at that time the water rose up in
fury, hence only in the latter posuk is the word Choma spelled as
Chaima, missing the Vav.
"
)
 (Adapted from Rav Nissan Kaplan's Kesher Shel Kayma)

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Yes, I understand the angels were testifying against the Children of Israel. They were saying 'These are Idolators, and so too these are Idolators". They could not understand why Hashem would save the Jewish people because they were not much better than the Egyptians themselves.

Here is an excerpt from the shemayisrael site which explains this midrash:

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/alport/archives/beshalach69.htm

Quote
Uv’nei Yisroel halchu bayabasha b’soch hayam v’hamayim lahem chomah miy’minam u’mismolam (14:29)

The Medrash teaches (Yalkut Shimoni 234) that when the Jewish people were crossing the Red Sea, the prosecuting angel argued that it was inappropriate for Hashem to perform miracles on their behalf since they had worshipped idolatry in Egypt. This argument is difficult to understand. If their idolatrous practices represented a reason that Hashem shouldn’t perform miracles on their behalf, why did he wait until this point to make this argument instead of pressing his claim during the entire year that Hashem was performing the ten plagues on their behalf?

The Meshech Chochmah answers by pointing out a curious apparent contradiction. With regard to commandments which are violated through actions, such as idolatry and forbidden relationships, the Torah prescribes an appropriate punishment, such as death, lashes, and kares (spiritual excision), for each transgression. On the other hand, no such punishment is given in conjunction with mitzvos that are transgressed through corrupt character traits, such as forbidden gossip or hating another Jew.

            However, this dichotomy applies only to sins committed by an individual. Regarding communal sins, the rule is reversed. The Yerushalmi teaches (Peah 1:1) that the generation of Dovid HaMelech was righteous, yet they still fell in battle because they spread rumors about one another. The generation of Achav was full of wicked idolaters, yet they emerged successful and unscathed from their battles because they didn’t gossip about one another. He explains that if the nation is corrupt in idolatry or adultery, Hashem still dwells among them in the midst of their spiritual impurity, but if they are stricken with bad character traits, He metaphorically abandons them to return to the Heavens.

Because of the communal severity of interpersonal sins, the first Temple was destroyed for the cardinal sins of murder, idolatry, and forbidden relationships, yet it was rebuilt relatively quickly. The second Temple was destroyed for the sin of gossip and baseless hatred, and has yet to be rebuilt (Yoma 9b). Similarly, Hashem forgave the Jewish people for the sin of idolatrously worshipping the golden calf, but He didn’t forgive them for the sin of the spies, which involved negative speech and a lack of gratitude, and decreed that they would die in the wilderness as a result.

            With this introduction, the Meshech Chochmah explains that in Egypt, the Jewish people were steeped in the 49th level of spiritual impurity and worshipped idolatry just like the Egyptians. Still, they had one saving grace, in that they dwelled peacefully and didn’t gossip about one another (Vayikra Rabbah 32:5). As a result, Hashem forgave their other communal sins and miraculously performed the plagues to bring about their salvation, and the prosecuting angel had grounds for his argument.

When they were trapped at the Red Sea by the pursuing Egyptians, the Medrash (Yalkut Shimoni 233) teaches that they divided into 4 groups who fought about the appropriate strategy. Only at this time, when the nation lacked unity, was the prosecuting angel able to argue that they should be judged for their individual sins, such as idolatry, and Hashem should not perform further miracles on their behalf. In these difficult times for our nation, let us strengthen ourselves in our pursuit of unity and love for our fellow Jews. In that merit, Hashem should perform miracles for us just as He did for our ancestors in Egypt.

I also realized last night when I was about to sleep that I mis-stated the midrash. I stated they divided into three camps, but it actually was that they divided into four camps.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
I realize that this is not exactly on-topic for your thread, but it provides a more complete explanation of the 'four camps' which formed at the edge of the Sea of Reeds...

http://www.chabad.org/global/popup/default_cdo/aid/2774/jewish/The-Four-Factions.htm

Quote

Moses said to the people: "Fear not; stand by and see the salvation of G-d which He will show you today. For as you have seen Egypt this day, you shall not see them again, forever. G-d shall fight for you, and you shall be silent."

G-d said to Moses: "Why do you cry out to Me? Speak to the children of Israel, that they should go forward."


Exodus 14:13-15

We all know the feeling: you wake up one morning to the realization that the world is not as you would like it to be.

A common experience, to be sure, but different people have different reactions. One person embarks upon a quixotic crusade to change the world. A second gives up the world for lost, and retreats into whatever protective walls he can erect around himself and his loved ones. A third takes a pragmatic approach, accepting the world for what it is and doing his best under the circumstances. A fourth recognizes his inability to deal with the situation, and looks to a higher power for guidance and aid.

Our forefathers experienced just such a rude awakening on the seventh day after their liberation from Egypt.

Ten devastating plagues had broken the might of the Egyptians and compelled them to free the Jewish people. After two centuries of exile and slavery, the children of Israel were headed toward Mount Sinai and their covenant with G-d. Indeed, this was the stated purpose of the Exodus; as G-d told Moses, "When you take this nation out of Egypt, you will serve G-d at this mountain."

But suddenly the sea was before them and Pharaoh's armies were closing in from behind. Egypt was alive and well; the sea, too, seemed oblivious to the destiny of the newly born nation.

How did they react? The Midrash tells us that the Jewish people were divided into four camps. There were those who said, "Let us throw ourselves into the sea." A second group said, "Let us return to Egypt." A third faction argued, "Let us wage war upon the Egyptians." Finally, a fourth camp advocated, "Let us pray to G-d."

Moses, however, rejected all four options, saying to the people, "Fear not; stand by and see the salvation of G-d which He will show you today. For as you have seen Egypt this day, you shall not see them again, forever. G-d shall fight for you, and you shall be silent" (Exodus 14:13). "Fear not, stand by and see the salvation of G-d," explains the Midrash, is Moses' response to those who had despaired of overcoming the Egyptian threat and wanted to plunge into the sea. "As you have seen Egypt this day, you shall not see them again" is addressed to those who advocated surrender and return to Egypt. "G-d shall fight for you" is the answer to those who wished to battle the Egyptians, "and you shall be silent" is Moses rejection of those who said, "This is all beyond us. All we can do is pray."
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
There is a famous saying of the Sages. The Sustenance of a person is as difficult for G-d as the splitting of Yom Suf.
Torah Temima asks, G-d can do anything. How could the Sages describe the splitting of Yom Suf as difficult?
He answers there are certain activities in this world that are dependent on merits.
And the accuser offers reasons why G-d should not allow a particular beneficial activity to happen according to G-d's rules of justice. And sometimes it is difficult for G-d to find a counter claim against the accuser, why a particular group does have sufficient merit to gain that benefit.
This was the case at Yom Suf where, the accuser said, these (the Egyptians) are idol worshippers and these (the Israelites) are idol worshippers. Why split the sea for one but not the other?
See comment 11 of Torah Temima to Breishit/Genesis chapter 48 for his comments in full on the subject.
As I have indicated before at Yom Suf there was at least a possibility while the Israelites were in the middle of the sea, that the claims of the accuser would be partially accepted and cause damage to Israel. This is what G-d meant by "the works of my hand are drowning or alternately translated, sinking in the Yom". I am bringing up the alternate translation for the Aramaic word attributed to Rabbi Yochanan, in Megilla 10b,
טובעין {pronounced Tovin, which might denote sinking} because the word Yom, although it is often associated in Hebrew with the water of the sea, at least sometimes means the sea bed, which is why the container of water in the Beit Hamikdash for immersion was called the Yom Shel Shlomo and why Yishayahu 11:9 describes the water as covering the Yom (see Rabbeinu Bachayei to Breishit 1:10 for details).

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
The 2nd example brought by the Talmud in tractate Megilla 10b, concerning the downfall of the wicked, namely, Divrei Hayamim/II Chron. XX, 21, also should be understood as G-d not being happy with the downfall of the wicked of Israel. I will now try to explain this in depth.
Divrei Hayamim/II Chronicles chapter 20 informs us that during the reign of the righteous king Yehoshafat, Amon and Moav (Moab) had gathered a strong army together in order to expel the Jews from their country. Yehoshafat called for a public fast and urged his fellow Jews to repent with the hope that this would also gain him support from G-d to solve the problem.
A prophet informed Yehoshafat that the Jews would indeed be saved without even having to fight. He also told the Jews in what area the enemy soldiers would suffer their defeat. Yehoshafat's people, unlike the religious leftists of our days said, it is fitting to say Hallel while G-d is bringing the miraculous downfall of our enemies, so in verse 19 they start to say Hallel, (prayers of thanks and praise) and verse 22 makes it clear that the Hallel prayer was being said right at the time that the enemy was starting to fall, namely, as the enemy decided to fight among themselves.
But although they were saying Hallel over the downfall of their enemies, in verse 21, we learn that they were saying it in a slightly flawed way. They said, "Give thanks unto the L-rd, for his mercy endureth for ever", instead of saying the more complete praise, Give thanks unto the L-rd, for he is good (alt. translation for it is good), for his mercy endureth for ever". It is from this omission that Rabbi Yochanan concludes, that G-d is not happy with the downfall of the wicked, which is why the children of Israel omitted for he is good (alt. translation for it is good) from their Hallel.
The question arises, the downfall of which wicked people, caused the children of Israel to say a flawed Hallel? Some Bible interpreters mistakenly think it was the downfall of Moav and Ammon that were attempting to expel the Jews from their land that caused Israel to say a flawed version of Hallel. However, the more logical explanation as Yehoshua Rosenberg points out, is that the flawed Hallel was a result of the distress of the Jews, because until the enemy was defeated, there was always the chance that some of the wicked of Israel might be harmed before the final victory. The distress of Israel over the potential danger from the enemy to harm some of the Jewish people, according to Rabbi Yochanan, resulted in a flawed Hallel prayer. This was similar to the situation of the night of Yom Suf, where the ministering angels did not sing their songs of praise at all, because at that time the wicked of Israel were in danger of receiving  a similar punishment to the one befalling the enemy.
Further indication that we are not sad at all about the downfall of our non-Jewish enemies comes later in the Talmud in tractate Megilla which records a conversation between Mordechai and Haman, when Haman was forced to give royal honor to Mordechai and was publicly humiliated by Mordechai. Haman at that time complained to Mordechai that he was violating the Biblical verse in the book of Mishlei/Proverbs 24:17, "when your enemy falls do not rejoice". Mordechai answered back, that the verse applies to an enemy who is part of the Jewish people, but against you (and your type), the verse of Dvarim/Deut. 33:29 is applicable.
Furthermore, if Moshe (Moses) and Bnei Yisrael (the children of Israel) sang praises to G-d about the drowning of the Egyptians in the sea, it would also indicate that this is nothing to feel sad about. Furthermore, the Bible states outright in Tehillim/Pslams 58: "The righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance".

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
This is basically the Soncino translation to Talmud Sotah 37aWe see from this source that it was Israel who were considered by the Talmud as "drowning in the sea", during the night that the ministering angels did not sing Shira at Yom Suf.
This is a point to come back to when we discuss G-d willing and bli neder, the Talmudic selection from Megilla 10b that certain Jews like to distort in order to encourage us to feel bad about the downfall of national enemies.

Wow, I never realized this.   Yasher Koach.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
I guess it should have troubled me "why would Hashem refer to the Egyptians as "His beloved" "   Because He obviously doesn't.  That is probably one of the kashiyot behind the Talmudic explanation.   
Not that Hashem doesn't consider all humankind 'beloved' - He of course does.   But "My Beloved" refers to the relationship with the Jewish people which is likened by scripture to a husband and wife.   And the egyptians were behaving quite badly, so they were a step below God's love for all of human kind IMO.