Celebrating Yom Haatzmaut serious questions and discussion needed.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Shalom,
 I am writing here to discuss why we should say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut. Even though I did say it this year after reading some things today (which I also knew somewhat beforehand) I am extremely pissed off and incensed against the labor Zionists who took control over Israel and who established this celebration. My question is why after all they have done from before and ever since the State should we celebrate their day? I mean why would a bunch of labor zionist kofrim making an announcement on a certain day mean that I (or anyone else here) as a Religious Jew should say Hallel because of it? If anything that was the day that they took power for themselves and further made crimes against the Jewish people (for example very shortly after they murdered Jews in the Altellena, also collaborated with the British and first tortured and then handed over Jewish "terrorists" over to the British to be killed! Kidnapped Religious Sefardic children and threw them to socialist elite" kibbutzim. Made Sefardic Jewry into criminals by separating them from the Torah, from real Jewish values something that the Muslims didn't and couldn't do for over 1,000 years the labor zionists did within a generation.
 I remember Rav Bar-Hayim comparing it to Hannukah, but my objection to this reasoning is that during Hannukah they were Tzaddikim who then went astray, in this case they were always heretics and traitors to begin with and that day marks their day of getting more power and not something that awesome for Am Yisrael.
 Am I wrong in my observations? If anything perhaps the 12th of Cheshvan (day Yigal Amir became famous) is a better day to celebrate.
 Thoughts/comments/arguments welcome.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

What are the labor Zionists?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What are the labor Zionists?

 The eruv-rav. ben-gurgur, Rabin, Goldi locks and co.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Noam Federman's video on  this. (Hebrew, translation needed for the forum).
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Shalom,
 I am writing here to discuss why we should say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut. Even though I did say it this year after reading some things today (which I also knew somewhat beforehand) I am extremely pissed off and incensed against the labor Zionists who took control over Israel and who established this celebration. My question is why after all they have done from before and ever since the State should we celebrate their day? I mean why would a bunch of labor zionist kofrim making an announcement on a certain day mean that I (or anyone else here) as a Religious Jew should say Hallel because of it? If anything that was the day that they took power for themselves and further made crimes against the Jewish people (for example very shortly after they murdered Jews in the Altellena, also collaborated with the British and first tortured and then handed over Jewish "terrorists" over to the British to be killed! Kidnapped Religious Sefardic children and threw them to socialist elite" kibbutzim. Made Sefardic Jewry into criminals by separating them from the Torah, from real Jewish values something that the Muslims didn't and couldn't do for over 1,000 years the labor zionists did within a generation.   

As far as I know, none of these considerations factor into halacha of saying hallel or about Jewish sovereignty in general, which is better than not having sovereignty, even when it was under the evil kings.   There were literally kings who put idols into the Temple, and yet when we lost the Jewish commonwealth it was seen as a great tragedy (and it was).

I remember Rav Bar-Hayim comparing it to Hannukah, but my objection to this reasoning is that during Hannukah they were Tzaddikim who then went astray, in this case they were always heretics and traitors to begin with and that day marks their day of getting more power and not something that awesome for Am Yisrael.
 Am I wrong in my observations? If anything perhaps the 12th of Cheshvan (day Yigal Amir became famous) is a better day to celebrate.
 Thoughts/comments/arguments welcome.

I'm not sure I understand the point.   The question is not whether tzaddikim were involved.  Does my mitzvah of davening count less if the sheliach tzibur is not a tzaddik?  Am I any less commanded to do it?   Who has that luxury to make sure all divrei mitzvot are performed only amidst the presence of tzaddikim?  How many tzaddikim truly even exist today?

A failure to grasp the historical circumstances and the precarious position of world Jewry at that time can prevent one from understanding why Torah luminaries such as Rav Yakov Kamenetsky were overjoyed by the Israeli independence and why certain haredi yeshivas proudly said hallel (even though they stopped doing it).   It certainly is awesome to establish Jewish sovereignty over our land.  It is the first step toward establishing an ethical society within it that adheres to Torah and ushers in hopefully a messianic era and/or redemption when we do what we are commanded.    The Torah commands us to be here.   And not under the dominion of foreigners.  Defeating and removing them is step one.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 Fine, its potentially a step but its not the complete step. And that step itself carried with it and gave certain individuals the power to influence Am Yisrael and they did in a very negative way both physically and spiritually.
  Why is it worse being under British occupation then being under hellinist occupation?

 Also perhaps them making their announcement at that time prevented and hijacked the real zionism that should have been established. They usurped power from am Yisrael and crushed their opponents (like in the Altellena) and the kidnapping of Jewish Sefardic children + the spiritual kidnapping through their bolshevik education system that they established. Did it bring Am Yisrael forward or perhaps backward in many years from us reaching our goals.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Fine, its potentially a step but its not the complete step. And that step itself carried with it and gave certain individuals the power to influence Am Yisrael and they did in a very negative way both physically and spiritually.
  Why is it worse being under British occupation then being under hellinist occupation?

I think that's pretty obvious.   The British were systematically exterminating us and inflating the arab population while blocking Jewish immigrants and leaving them to burn in europe.   Even as bad as labor and likud zionists are, the situation is obviously not the same.

 

Also perhaps them making their announcement at that time prevented and hijacked the real zionism that should have been established. They usurped power from am Yisrael and crushed their opponents (like in the Altellena) and the kidnapping of Jewish Sefardic children + the spiritual kidnapping through their bolshevik education system that they established. Did it bring Am Yisrael forward or perhaps backward in many years from us reaching our goals.

And yet the same people they attacked on the Altalena supported the declaration of Independence and encouraged them time and time again to do it until B-G finally gave in and did it.  Because it was a much needed escape from the galut mentality.  They finally embraced Jewish sovereignty.  Our self-acknowledgement of our own dominion over the land is itself an establishment of said dominion.   

When you ask if it brought us forward or backwards, I'm really at a loss that you would suggest that at all.   I almost feel there is no way to persuade you because this is something so self-evident and obvious that only if you fail to grasp the historical circumstances (of then, but also of now) could you possibly ask this.

If someone is celebrating labor zionists on yom haatzmaut, then they are doing it wrong.   The day of independence (or as Rav Bar Hayim terms it, the day of Rebirth of Israel) is a day to celebrate God and the miracles He has given us.   That is what hallel is instituted for.  And labor zionists certainly don't say hallel.

[muman613]

I find myself in the Kookian camp on the issue of religious zionism.

I do see the modern state as a step toward the promised final redemption. As a result I think supporting the state is the best thing, while avoiding creating more division in the many 'camps' of modern Israel. It seems that Zionism has become fragmented and that there is much in-fighting between so-called zionists.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman video has nothing to do with the discussion. And from what I heard at least the original Rav Kook talked about temporary working with them because at the time they were building Eress Yisrael but eventually being greater then them (both in numbers and power) and overpowering them (to that effect). It wasn't to accept a hiloni state with hiloni rulers as some kooknicks love to do these days. 

[muman613]

Muman video has nothing to do with the discussion. And from what I heard at least the original Rav Kook talked about temporary working with them because at the time they were building Eress Yisrael but eventually being greater then them (both in numbers and power) and overpowering them (to that effect). It wasn't to accept a hiloni state with hiloni rulers as some kooknicks love to do these days.

Rabbi Kook taught, according to my understanding, that the secular state would eventually see the beauty of the Torah and do teshuva. I don't know about the kooknicks you are talking about, but those who have learned at the Rav Kook Yeshiva teach that the final redemption will occur as the sages, such as Rambam, explain. It will happen when the secular state realizes that the only way to survive is by standing strong for the Torah and the land.

Tag, I hope you are not flirting with anti-zionist (modern state) ideas. Once you do this you may find yourself on the road to joining NK...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

but those who have learned at the Rav Kook Yeshiva teach that the final redemption will occur as the sages, such as Rambam, explain. It will happen when the secular state realizes that the only way to survive is by standing strong for the Torah and the land.

Tag, I hope you are not flirting with anti-zionist (modern state) ideas. Once you do this you may find yourself on the road to joining NK...

 1) Huh? No one expected things to turn out the way it did. Certainly not through secular means. Whoever told you that about the Rambam you either heard wrong or they were lying to you.
 
  2) LOL no I am not. I will refrain from writing what I would do to the NK traitors, but I'll leave it to your imagination.

[muman613]

1) Huh? No one expected things to turn out the way it did. Certainly not through secular means. Whoever told you that about the Rambam you either heard wrong or they were lying to you.
 
  2) LOL no I am not. I will refrain from writing what I would do to the NK traitors, but I'll leave it to your imagination.

Ok, let me clarify because it seems what I wrote was misinterpreted.

I know Rambam does not say that there will be a secular state. What I was trying to say is that Rabbi Kook sees the same vision, that Moshiach will come and there will be an ingathering of exiles, and the Temple will be rebuilt.

What Rabbi Kook brings as new to the vision is that the first steps of the ingathering will be due to the creation of the secular state. Once there are a majority of Jews in Israel then the additional stages will occur... Kooks outlook is that there is nothing to prevent the first steps of the ingathering to be brought about through secular zionism.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  The question is about saying Hallel or not (this is what the thread is about).
   If we say Hallel for the reasons of the war and victory weren't their other wars and victories that we had yet we don't say Hallel for them. Soo why is this day different?

 And like I said about the Maccabees and their victory. Their victory constituted something for the sake of G-D and about creating a Jewish (Religious) country. They fought against the Greeks and hellinists as well. In this case it wasn't like that where in fact the good Jews fought in many of the cases yett the hellinists took over. See the difference?

[muman613]

Oh sorry... I thought the thread was more on whether we should celebrate the day...

This article explains Rabbi Kooks outlook on Yom Haatzmut...

http://ravkooktorah.org/YOM_ATZMAUT_68.htm

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Oh sorry... I thought the thread was more on whether we should celebrate the day...

This article explains Rabbi Kooks outlook on Yom Haatzmut...

http://ravkooktorah.org/YOM_ATZMAUT_68.htm

 He mentions the second return during the times of Ezra, but we don't say Hallel for that event.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

We are used to living in the present day so it's difficult to comprehend what it was like back then.  One third of Jewry was just slaughtered.   They tried to kill them all.  Many were still hostile to Jews after the war, including arabs obviously.    To rebirth the Jewish nation in its land was no small feat and was something felt by Jews all over the world.   A rapid reversal of fortune.     
Had Israel not become established, do you really believe we would be living in a world as we live in today?   I think there already would have been several more attempts to wipe out Jews in Europe and in the middle east.