"If you take on the Frum, you can only lose!"

[Yerusha]

There is an old Yiddish expression:
mit der Frummer men ken nor farleeren - "If you try and take on the Frum, you will only lose!"

If these masses of frum fellows are twistedly resolved in absolutely not performing the Torah command of Milchemes Mitzvah (which includes everyone signing up to defend the borders of Eretz Yisrael against enemies, even a groom in his nuptial chamber [Rambam])
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168055#.UZVa1stBTn4them short of gunning them down, how are Bennett & Lapid going to force them?!

[JTFenthusiast2]

We need more Jewish warriors

[kyel]

Well if politicians appealed to their religious sense they would be much more likely to join. It would probably be good for their character also, I mean why study Torah if you are not going to apply it?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Well if politicians appealed to their religious sense they would be much more likely to join. It would probably be good for their character also, I mean why study Torah if you are not going to apply it?

 Their are different issues at stake here. 1) Who is a real Torah scholar who would be exempt and who is not. 2) Is the environment in the army good for the young men or not and if not how to accommodate them properly. 3) The fact of learning Torah itself is applying the Torah and learning Torah is Kneged Kolam. 4) Is joining the army a Milhemit Mitzwah or not? And if it is then not only the Haredim or people in Israel would be obligated but every Jew wherever he lives would be obligated as well to fight in the Milhemit Mitzwah.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

short of gunning them down, how are Bennett & Lapid going to force them?!

 Its called economic incentives and penalties (which in effect already exist by the job market not taking those who don't join). Add to the fact that their will be cuts in funding to their institutions after some time you will see more join. Its economics.

[kyel]

Maimonides wrote that:  Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah [study] and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaqa - this person desecrates God's name (*Chillel et Hashem*), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in *Olam haBa* (The world to come); since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of Torah in this world. The Rabbis said (Avot 4:5): Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his life in Olam haBa. They further commanded and said: (Avot 4:5) Do not make them [the words of Torah] a crown to magnify yourself or an axe with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: (Avot 1:10) Love work and despise positions of power (*Rabbanut*). And: (Avot 2:2) Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will steal from others.


They obviously had enough time to come out and make their protests well getting paid Tax dollars. They've turned Torah study into a cult! Please find me the passage that says "Thou Shall Not Work, Only Study".  If it weren't for the state they would die of starvation trying to live the lifestyles they do.

[Sveta]

It's a very hard subject. On one side, Haredim who spend most of their life studying do not belong with people who desecrate Shabbat or or having to spend most of the time in the same unit as some of the "slutty Israeli female soldiers" as a friend of mine kindly put it. (Not all female Israeli soliders are like that of course, but from the experience of others, some of the female soldiers can be really out there).

So not all women in the Israeli Army like that. And there are some very religious men in the IDF. But not all are, and some soldiers just could not care less about Judaism at all. Why do we want to take some fresh faced Bochurim and mix them up with that sort of people. This is not the Army of a righteous ruler like King David. This is the army of a government that shuns the Torah and wishes to give away land to appease the arabs and the nations.

Fortunately the IDF does have Haredi units. So that is a good option. But just one thing to note, religious men WILL study Torah regardless of whether they have a job or not. So these religious men will need to study daily. The IDF will need to provide it daily, several hours a day regardless of being soldiers or not.

Anyways, I am far from seeing Haredi men from lazy bums. I am sure there are those who are not sincere in what they do. But many of them are devout, observant and love Hashem. To me, those who study out of love for Hashem are already soldiers to me. They are fighting the spiritual war by being observant. Israel is just so leftist, so hateful of the Torah sometimes. Letting all things anti-Torah run rampant. What is Israel without the religious? All the leftist would love to get rid of the Haredim...and they would allow people like Peace Now, LGTB, Feminist females of the wall and all those type "Jews" take over. They would allow intermarriage, then Israel would barely be a Jewish country anymore.
Well overall, I think Israel is blessed thanks to the observance of those who are frum. Other than that, I am not a political person, it's just my opinion.

I would not agree with forcing frum women to serve though, there is National Service as an option for them. Don't take girls who study and force them into pants of the IDF combat uniforms, please. they don't belong in basic training. That would be where I would draw the line.
As for forcing Haredi men serve, I don't think it will happen. They would rather go to prison and study there than give up their black and whites for greens.

[muman613]

It is sad that so many people, including some JTF members, hate the Haredim... It seems they have been made into a modern scape-goat by the Israeli media... So too the non-religious kick them repeatedly when they are down. It is a travesty that so many Yeshivas will have to close due to budget cuts... There is a war on the religious being waged in Israel... I stand with the Haredim against those who try to destroy their culture.

[Sveta]

I am in favor of the Haredim, I hope I did not sound the opposite. But I do believe if military service is forced on them, they would rather go to prison than join the IDF. I don't think they should be forced. There are haredi military units, let that be optional for them but not forced.
Overall, they do a great service to the leftist liberal Israel through their "spiritual battalions" of observance. Unlike the majority of left loving, Torah hating Israelis.

[Yerusha]

When you get enough unmarried, repressed, healthy, well fed Haredim who are not full-time Torah learners compressed in to a small enough area, there's always the risk of a riot
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Thousands-of-haredim-protest-IDF-enlistment-legislation-3134


Although one can understand their desire not to be chillonized in Zahal, since 80% of Haredim are still despite all our efforts incorrigibly anti-Zionist and unreconstructably  anti-Kahanist, as well as opposing a clear Mitzvah, we have to assume that they will one day be included in Hashem's predicted "cull" one way or another, together will all the other wayward elements in Am Yisrael:

"And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and those that transgress against Me.....and you shall know that I am the LORD" (Yechezkel 20)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There is an old Yiddish expression:
mit der Frummer men ken nor farleeren - "If you try and take on the Frum, you will only lose!"

If these masses of frum fellows are twistedly resolved in absolutely not performing the Torah command of Milchemes Mitzvah (which includes everyone signing up to defend the borders of Eretz Yisrael against enemies, even a groom in his nuptial chamber [Rambam])
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168055#.UZVa1stBTn4them short of gunning them down, how are Bennett & Lapid going to force them?!

Ooo, wow, lots of them stood together wearing similar outfits.   Big deal.   They will force them the same way they force the settlers to do what they want.   Orange ribbons didn't help and neither will large haredi gatherings/demonstrations.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

When you get enough unmarried, repressed, healthy, well fed Haredim who are not full-time Torah learners compressed in to a small enough area, there's always the risk of a riot

Whereupon you show an image of a handful meah shearim rioters. (getting pummeled by the police no less).

   LOL LOLOLOL.   Do you comprehend how passive the vast majority of haredim are?   The Toldos Aharon sect of professional rioters is not representative of haredim.   And for professionals, these one or 2 chassidic sects sure do suck at it because they never achieve their goals, but they do cause a lot of monetary damage and public desecration of God's name.

Quit your delusions already.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

[JTFenthusiast2]

I am in favor of the Haredim, I hope I did not sound the opposite. But I do believe if military service is forced on them, they would rather go to prison than join the IDF. I don't think they should be forced. There are haredi military units, let that be optional for them but not forced.
Overall, they do a great service to the leftist liberal Israel through their "spiritual battalions" of observance. Unlike the majority of left loving, Torah hating Israelis.

Everyone should have to serve.  Everyone needs to know how to defend themselves, their families and their communities. Frum women included.  There should be no such thing as a protected class when it comes to having to serve.  Even the physically disabled, within reason, should have to serve in some non-physical capacity or a capacity that is within the bounds of realistic performance.  If that Female Israeli Settler had not been proficient in Krav Maga, her attacker would have brutally slaughtered her and her children--in front of one another

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If Israel were not a fascist secular dictatorship they would join voluntarily.

[muman613]

I agree with WFTMPTC that the current Israeli government doesn't appeal to the religious due to the governments atrocious view toward the religious. We are not permitted to pray at the Temple mount, the government is attempting to cut funding for both Haredie and Religious Zionist yeshivas, the government is evicting Jews from their land, and the government is giving the Jewish land to it's enemies.

If there was a righteous Jewish government maybe things would be different.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Everyone should have to serve.  Everyone needs to know how to defend themselves, their families and their communities. Frum women included.  There should be no such thing as a protected class when it comes to having to serve.  Even the physically disabled, within reason, should have to serve in some non-physical capacity or a capacity that is within the bounds of realistic performance.  If that Female Israeli Settler had not been proficient in Krav Maga, her attacker would have brutally slaughtered her and her children--in front of one another

 Rav Kahane specifically said that women are not to serve. They can get some training but their role is not to serve in the fighting units.

[Sveta]

Everyone should have to serve.  Everyone needs to know how to defend themselves, their families and their communities. Frum women included.  There should be no such thing as a protected class when it comes to having to serve.  Even the physically disabled, within reason, should have to serve in some non-physical capacity or a capacity that is within the bounds of realistic performance.  If that Female Israeli Settler had not been proficient in Krav Maga, her attacker would have brutally slaughtered her and her children--in front of one another

I have my opinion on allowing the Haredim who are sincerely studying and doing Mitzvot every day from being exempt but I am not going to talk about that right now. I want to reply to what you said about women and the physically disabled.

I don't know if you are Jewish or a Gentile. But basically, there is a Torah prohibition against cross dressing. And in order to be soldiers, people must go to basic training (boot camp). And in boot camp, Israeli female solders must wear combat uniforms...which include pants- which would make them go against the Torah. (Or at least I feel so). Unless you are going to say that women in military boot camps get to roll around in the mud, run around with weapons, rappel off towers in SKIRTS? At least for Jewish women, it's not ok to be wearing pants. I understand there are those who are not religious and feel it's ok- but from a religious standpoint it's not. I understand that in the Gentile world, there is no issue with a woman putting on pants and a military uniform and that's ok in the Gentile world. I am also well aware that female Israeli solders can wear skirts but that is only for the dressy type-uniforms...regardless they still have to wear combat pant uniforms during training and in case of a war. (if missiles break loose and there is a war, I don't see frum female soldiers running around in "combat skirts")

But in the religious world- frum women should NEVER be drafted into the IDF. Neither should people who are disabled. If you were not aware, Israel has set up the National Service system (Sherut Leumi) so that women and others who cannot serve (like the physically disabled) can volunteer and have that count as fulfilling their conscription. If women want to get together and learn how to defend themselves then they should and they already do. Like the many female settlers who learn how to shoot weapons. We don't need mandatory female frum conscription into the military. Let's leave the frum women out of this, it would be a travesty to force them into it.
Their female Israeli non-religious counterparts join the IDF willingly, and go around serving (and many times building for themselves a less than moral reputation) during their stint in the military. If they want to join- fine. They don't care, they're not religious, they do whatever they want. But not the frum girls-they live a very different lifestyle. The IDF cannot provide the modest and dress code lifestyle of from women.

No disrespect meant.

I agree also with what Muman said. "If there was a righteous Jewish government maybe things would be different."
Yes it would  be different. I said before, that when we talk about being conscripted (mandatory) into the IDF, we are not talking about the same military that was once lead by King David. We're talking about a military that will follow the government's orders to remove religious Jews out of their homes in exchange for "peace" with the arabs and usurpers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherut_Leumi

[JTFenthusiast2]

Ok. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Rav Kahane specifically said that women are not to serve. They can get some training but their role is not to serve in the fighting units.

I agree.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I agree.

Then Gd help them on a hiking trail gone bad.  This is tragically not an uncommon experience

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Then Gd help them on a hiking trail gone bad.  This is tragically not an uncommon experience

his comment said they could be trained in krav maga just can't serve in combat units.  What's the problem with a hiking trail?

[JTFenthusiast2]

his comment said they could be trained in krav maga just can't serve in combat units.  What's the problem with a hiking trail?

Many women have been attacked with knives and physically injured, sometimes killed and sexually assaulted or outright raped on these trails.  For a woman to not know how to defend herself in Israel (and one could argue anywhere) is, I think, crazy, but I can definitely understand Israeliheart's position.  It's tragic that every member of society needs to be trained in taking out an opponent--tragic.  If I had a daughter in Israel, I would make sure that she knew everything possible to protect herself.  When the chips are down, you really cannot depend on anyone except yourself.  Any one who has been a victim of a violent crime understands that I think

[Sveta]

I don't believe there is anything wrong with teaching women how to defend themselves. And I think they do, I found this picture:


But I think that is different than making frum women actually join the IDF and forsake the religious life...

I would love to take a self defense class as well, as long as it is all female. I am sure many frum women would too.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

This is Malkah Fleisher, former Arutz 7 hostess who now lives on the Mount of Olives.