ergdf

[Israel Chai]

When muslims warn to guard against "extremism" after a terrorist attack, they mean, "don't fight back".

[angryChineseKahanist]

ergdf to you too
what's E.R.G.D.F.?

[Israel Chai]

ergdf to you too
what's E.R.G.D.F.?

I just hit letters on the keyboard.

[Israel Chai]

When they say "I don't agree with Osama/Saddam/etc's methods but he's better than George Bush/America/..." [because he's/it's muslim], they mean everything he accomplished is good, but they would much prefer it if you would all convert peacefully.

Also, you can't take the approach that "when enough people start riding the crappy trains, then we'll get more/better ones". What would it matter if you had a thousand categories on the forum? Information would probably be classified better that way. If you have a "save India" section, then you're advertising for it, and people will feel the forum expresses something that's valuable to them, and they'll feel enfranchised, even if there's only a few people, which of course is the path to more people.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Hey, "112" you have 112 posts.
Just kidding.

[Israel Chai]

Hey, "112" you have 112 posts.
Just kidding.

Everyone that says anything about it seems to hate that name.

[Zelhar]

Are you high ?

[angryChineseKahanist]

or low?

[angryChineseKahanist]

or mid?
(in case someone misinterprets)

[Israel Chai]

Are you high ?

or low?

All three.

[muman613]

All three.

Remember this:

[Israel Chai]

Remember this:

Hey if we were made in the image of G-d, what exactly do we know about what G-d looks like?

[Ulli]

112 is the German phonenumber for ambulance and firefighters.

[Israel Chai]

This thread has been moved to "Guns/Firearms"

http://www.teapartytribune.com/hands-off-our-guns/?utm_source=TPC&utm_campaign=2f6bf974cf-Hands_Off_Our_Guns5_22_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9a1e1ec1f9-2f6bf974cf-322481465

Sign it now!

[muman613]

Hey if we were made in the image of G-d, what exactly do we know about what G-d looks like?

Of course Hashem has no 'image' so your question doesn't exactly make sense. When the Torah says we are made in the image of G-d it means we have the spiritual likeness of Hashem. It is not a physical resemblance but rather a spiritual one.

This article explains the quality of our Neshama which is in the image of G-d...

http://www.torah.org/features/genesis/topic2.html

"In God's Image"
by Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

"And the Lord said: Let us make Mankind in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. So the Lord created Mankind in His own image, int the image of the Lord He created Him, male and female." (Genesis 1, 25-26).

"This is the book of the generations of Adam [Mankind], on the day the Lord created Mankind, in the likeness of the Lord He made him." (Genesis 5, 1).

"Whoso sheds man's blood by a man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of the Lord made he man." (Genesis 9, 6).

Remarkably difficult verses!

If Judaism professes that God at Mt. Sinai admonished His people not to make any idol or depiction of Him - indeed, to not even form images of the sun and the moon (Exodus [Shemos] 20, 3), how then does this religion understand the statement that the human race bears resemblance to the Almighty?

We would do well to pose another question: The Torah makes use of several names to identify the Creator, the loftiest of which is the Tetragammaton (the four letter name consisting of the Hebrew letters Yud, Heh, Vav, Heh, known also as the "Shem Havayah," "The Name of Existence"). The narrative in the first chapter of Genesis, instead of using the more direct form of the Tetragammaton, uses the term Elokim. This term, in its connotation of "lordship," is often used to identify humans who possess authority, such as judges (as in Exodus 21, 6). It is frequently used to identify other, pagan gods. The Shem Havayah, on the other hand, is exclusively associated with the God of Judaism, Creator of Heavens and Earth. Why would the Torah choose to use the less specific Elokim over the more specific, more obvious choice, of Shem Havayah?

The answer lies in the meaning of the term Elokim. It is derived from the word "el," that means "strength," or "force." An Elokim is a "Master of Forces." Any individual or deity that possesses authority is a "Master (or Mistress) of Forces." When God is identified as Elokim, we are really describing Him as the ultimate "Master of Forces."

The identification of God as the ultimate Master of Forces is one of the most fundamental realizations stressed by Jewish thought. On the holiest day of the year (Yom Kippur), in the final and holiest prayer of the day (Ne'ila), the statement: "God is the Elokim" is repeated seven times. Judaism stresses this point in order to counteract human nature. It is a natural human tendency to ascribe mastery to immediate causes: financial security to one's employer; health to one's fitness or medical care; safety to one's protective resources, etc. We are taught, by repeating "God is the Elokim" seven times, corresponding to the days of the week, symbolic of the cumulative forces of the world, that all these causes are ultimately in the hands of God.

God endowed humans with certain natural drives, among them the aspiration towards mastery: "They shall rule over the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and over the cattle, the whole earth, and every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1, 26). The serpent was not in error when he encouraged Eve [Chava] to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in order to: "be like the Lord" (Genesis 2, 5). It was the path which he proposed that Eve and Adam follow, in order to achieve that goal, that was wrong.

God did not intend humans to master only the material world. He endowed humans with the capacity to master the Heavens, to manipulate the angels and the spiritual forces that angels represent. (It is for that reason that God turned to the angels and said "Let us make Man." He was really requesting them to contribute of their essence to Man, so as to "hard-wire" humanity with compatibility with the angels, ultimately affording us the capability to master and sway these spiritual forces.) The good deeds of Man enhances the positive forces of the spiritual realm, and these forces, in turn, exert a beneficial influence on the material world. Man's evil deeds diminish the spiritual realm, and, in turn, the material world is afflicted.

God's mastery of forces is thus reflected in the mastery He granted humanity. The term "image" expresses that thought. The Hebrew word for "image" in all these verses is "tzelem." The word tzelem is derived from the word "tzel," that means "shadow" or "reflection." Man is intended to be a lord, an Elokim, over the forces of Creation, a reflection of God's Lordship. The other word that the Torah utilizes here, "likeness," reflects this idea as well. The Hebrew word for "likeness" in all these verses is "demus." The word demus is derived from the word "domeh," that means "similar." Human beings are certainly not duplicates of a God that has no body nor form. They are similar in their mastery - of the spiritual and physical dimensions of Creation.
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[Israel Chai]

So if Jew draws something and calls it G-d it's offensive?

What I get from your article is that the power to create is more than the power of simply existing, what we create can be more important than just ourselves and though we can't exist like G-d, we can create like him so we have to do the types of things we should, and we have to apply the principles of what G-d does to our existence. There's also lots of good info there, thanks.

[muman613]

So if Jew draws something and calls it G-d it's offensive?

What I get from your article is that the power to create is more than the power of simply existing, what we create can be more important than just ourselves and though we can't exist like G-d, we can create like him so we have to do the types of things we should, and we have to apply the principles of what G-d does to our existence. There's also lots of good info there, thanks.

Yes 121 (or 112) Judaism is absolutely against creating an image and saying that it represents G-ds essence. The second commandment clearly forbids making a 'molten' image (which has been explained as a statue or 3 dimensional rendering) nor should we limit him by saying that a drawing represents his essence.

I am glad you found that article interesting, and it sounds like you are understanding the concepts..

[Rubystars]

The danger in creating images that represent God is that someone could worship the image rather than God.

[muman613]

The danger in creating images that represent God is that someone could worship the image rather than God.

Very true Rubystars, you have explained one of the main reasons for the prohibition. But it also goes beyond that...


Here is the explanation of the laws concerning rendering things in the 'heavens and on earth'...

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5773/vayera.html

Making an Image of Celestial Bodies

Question: Is it permitted to photograph the sun, moon or stars?

Discussion: From the verse in Parashas Yisro, “You must not make images of what is with Me,” the Rabbis of the Talmud derive a Biblical prohibition against making images of any celestial bodies. Rambam explains that the Torah prohibits making these images so that people will not come to attribute Divine powers to them and worship them as avodah zarah. Thus it is forbidden to make an image of the sun, moon or stars.

What does “make an image” mean? How do we define “image” concerning this prohibition? The Rishonim describe three types of images:

Protruding (or raised) image — a three-dimensional replica.

Depressed image — an image carved into a substance.

Flat image — a two-dimensional painting or drawing on a flat surface.

Some Rishonim hold that the prohibition applies only to images which are raised or protruding; a depressed or flat image is not a true representation of a celestial body and may be fashioned.

Shulchan Aruch, however, rules like the majority of Rishonim who maintain that the prohibition includes a depressed or a flat image as well. In their opinion, a depressed or a flat image is a true representation of a celestial body, since from our perspective, the sun, moon and stars do not appear to the human eye as protruding from the heavens.

A minority view makes a distinction between a depressed image — which is prohibited, and a flat image — which is permitted. They reason that a flat image of no depth is not considered an image at all and is permitted to be painted or drawn. But most authorities equate a flat image with a depressed image, which the Shulchan Aruch strictly prohibits. The basic halachah follows the more stringent view.

Contemporary poskim debate whether taking a photograph of the sun or the moon is similar to drawing a flat image. Several rule stringently on this issue.

Note: Although a flat image is prohibited, this applies only to making an image where the intent is to represent a celestial body. For instance, it is prohibited to paint a shul ceiling with “stars,” since the intent is to represent the stars in the sky. But it is permitted to make images of the sun, moon or stars when there is no such intention. Thus, it is permitted to draw a Magen David, bake cookies in the form of a half-moon, give children a “star” on a homework assignment, etc.

Question: Is it permitted to draw (or photograph) part of the sun or moon?

Discussion: It is only prohibited to draw (or photograph) an image of the sun in its entirety. It is permitted to draw (or photograph) a part of the sun, or a partial view of the sun — i.e., a sun which is partially obscured by clouds or after it has begun to set and is no longer entirely visible. The same halachah applies to stars.

But it is forbidden to draw (or photograph) the moon in the beginning of the lunar month, even though only part of the moon is visible at that time.

The reason why the halachah permits making a picture of part of a sun or part of a star and forbids making an image of part of a moon is as follows: Barring extraordinary weather conditions, the sun and stars always appear to us in their entirety; creating part of a sun or part of a star, therefore, is not considered making an image of the sun or star at all. The moon, on the other hand, appears to us in different shapes at different times of the month; in the beginning of the month, the partial- moon is the actual appearance of the moon from our visual perspective. Thus it is forbidden to recreate that image of the moon.

Question: Is it permitted to create (or photograph) an image of the sun or the moon for instructional purposes?

Discussion: Shulchan Aruch rules that it is permitted to create images of celestial bodies if it is for the purpose of “study, to [better] understand [their nature] and to [be able to] teach [their laws].” Indeed, the Talmud tells us that Rabban Gamliel himself used various moon shapes to assist him in questioning witnesses who testified regarding kiddush ha-chodesh. But contemporary poskim are divided concerning the practical applications of this leniency:

Some poskim permit creating these images only to aid in the study of practical halachah, as in the case of Rabban Gamliel.
Other poskim permit creating these images as teaching tools for any area of Torah study, e.g., when studying the creation of the world in Parashas Bereishis or when learning about Yosef’s dream.
One should consult an halachic authority as to whether or not it is permitted to make an image of a celestial body if it is going to be used in a classroom science project, etc.

Question: Is it permitted to commission a non-Jew to draw (or photograph) an image of a celestial body?

Discussion: No, it is not permitted. Just as it is forbidden to instruct a non-Jew to desecrate the Shabbos on behalf of a Jew, so, too, it is forbidden to instruct a non-Jew to transgress any Torah prohibition on behalf of a Jew.

But once a picture (or a photograph) of an image of the sun, moon or stars has already been drawn or painted, it is permitted to leave it in one’s domain; there is no obligation to destroy or get rid of it. [This applies to depressed or flat images only; a protruding image of a celestial body may not be kept in one’s possession.] Thus, if a picture of the sun, moon or stars appears in a book or a newspaper, one need not cut it out.



1. Shemos 20:20.
2. Rosh Hashanah 24b; Avodah Zarah 43b.
3. Avodah Zarah 3:10; Sefer ha-Mitzvos, Lo Sa’asseh 4.
4. Other Rishonim, however, understand that this prohibition is a gezeiras ha-kasuv; see Chasam Sofer (Toras Moshe, Yisro), for an elaboration.
5. Ramban and Ritva, Avodah Zarah 43b.
6. Y.D. 151:4.
7. See Tosafos, Rosh Hashanah 24b, s.v. v’ha; Kessef Mishneh, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 3:11.
8. Darchei Moshe, Y.D. 141:5, quoting Maharam; Taz, Y.D. 141:13 and Pischei Teshuvah 6. See Beis Avi 2:75.
9. Rambam, Hilchos Avodah Zarah 3:11;   Nekudos ha-Kessef, Y.D. 141:5; Chochmas Adam 85:5; Pischei Teshuvah, Y.D. 141:8; Darchei Teshuvah Y.D. 141:36, quoting Beis Shelomo; Rashash, Yuma 54b.
10. See Igros Moshe, O.C. 5:9-6, Minchas Yitzchak 10:72 and Shevet ha-Levi 7:134.
11. Minchas Yitzchak 10:72; Rav N. Karelitz (Avodas Melech, pg. 337). See, however, Shevet ha-Levi 7:134, who remains undecided on this issue.
12. Although in reality stars are spherical, nowadays the designated and universally recognized symbol for a star is the five-pointed “star.” Accordingly, one may not create that image, since it is that symbol which represents the celestial body of a star; Rav N. Karelitz, Avodas Melech, pg. 337.
13. See Nekudos ha-Kessef, Y.D. 141:5, who rules that only a tzurah gemurah is prohibited. Rav N. Karelitz (Avodas Melech, pg. 337) explains that any tzurah b’alma, such as a Magen David or a half-moon cookie, is permitted, since there is no intent to represent a celestial body.
14. Shach, Y.D. 141:25. Indeed, it is only prohibited to draw a picture of the sun together with its rays; there is no prohibition against making just a round circle that resembles the sun; Tzitz Eliezer 9:44-9, quoting several sources. [See Shevet ha-Kehasi 6:302-2, who rules that it is only prohibited to draw a red sun, the color in which it appears during sunrise and sunset.]
15. Shevet ha-Levi 7:134; Rav N. Karelitz (Avodas Melech, pg. 337).
16. Darchei Teshuvah, Y.D. 141:38 and 51.
17. Darchei Teshuvah, Y.D. 141:38; Shevet ha-Levi 7:134; Rav N. Karelitz (Avodas Melech, pg. 337).
18. Y.D. 141:4.
19. Note that Chochmas Adam and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch omit this leniency altogether, which leads Minchas Yitzchak 10:72 to suggest that nowadays, there are no practical applications of this leniency.
20. Rav N. Karelitz (Avodas Melech, pg. 337). This appears to be the view of Chasam Sofer, Y.D. 128.
21. Shevet ha-Levi 7:134, based on Nekudos ha-Kessef who permitted, in part, the publication of machzorim that contained a drawing of the twelve constellations because the mazalos can be better understood when viewing them.
22. See Meiri (Avodah Zarah 42b, s.v. din acheirim), who seems to permit creating images of celestial bodies
23. Shach, Y.D. 141:23.
24. Entire paragraph based on Chochmas Adam 85:6-8 and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 168:1 (see Az Nidberu 8:59). See also Darchei Teshuvah, Y.D. 141:34, quoting Lechem Rav.

[Israel Chai]

What is the punishment for "drawing" G-d?