Fourth Anniversary Of Divine Double Death Day

[cjd]

So what if a Catholic couple gets their marriage annulled and they had kids? Does that retroactively make them "bastards" as understood by the Christian definition of the word? I say "Christian" because for Jews, bastards are only the product of a prohibited relationship. Simply having kids outside of marriage does not make bastards in Judaism but rather just illegitimate children.
 

I don't think it's possible for Catholics with children to request an annulment from the church... As I said in an earlier post annulment is for people who have only been married for a very short time and find that one or more of the partners don't have what it takes to make the marital relationship a success... I am not sure but I believe if even just  to much time goes by it becomes difficult to get the church to move on a request of annulment... Most requests for this sort of thing are denied by the church.

[nessuno]

hehehe

Actually, annulment's are not allowed in Judaism except in extremely rare circumstances (for example if there was deception involved in the marriage circumstances, it could be determined that the marriage document was not legally valid).   In probably 99.9% of cases, there is no way to annul, and people who can't stay together simply get divorced.  (Divorce is permitted by Judaism).

Thank you for that explanation.  It was easy to understand.

Catholic annulments are granted on a similar basis.  It is not used as a Catholic 'divorce tool' ( as was suggested by BY) since a valid marriage in the eyes of the church cannot be dissolved.
When Catholic couples seek a divorce it is granted civilly. As for Muman's question about the church and alimony.  It is a mute point ( as they don't grant divorces).  The courts decide alimony and child support ( child support is far more important  in my eyes).  Any parent to a child should not need the church or the courts to tell them to take care of their child, in my opinion.  That is not the case often though. Thus we have divorce laws in this country.  This is as far as I know and I am not an expert on the church or divorce.

As for Catholics who divorce...that is between them and G-d.

[nessuno]

So what if a Catholic couple gets their marriage annulled and they had kids? Does that retroactively make them "bastards" as understood by the Christian definition of the word? I say "Christian" because for Jews, bastards are only the product of a prohibited relationship. Simply having kids outside of marriage does not make bastards in Judaism but rather just illegitimate children.
 

So I guess we can call Islam gay since any real Muslim is by definition not a good person. They might call themselves Muslim but they're trying to hijack the religion from the real Islam that is espoused by Al-Qaida (The opposite of what Bush said.).

I don't understand a grown man using the word 'gay' the way you do, for any purpose.
I don't know all the ins and outs of a Catholic annulment.  For that you need to consult a priest.

Muman,  I know you are trying to be very respectful here.
My source on the subject of annulment in Judaism might be questionable from your standpoint.  That is why I did not spout it as factual.  Which you have done with questionable sources yourself.  I used it to ask a question.  Also, gay was not used to mean odd from BY standpoint.  Although, you made a very diplomatic attempt at helping him out.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You basically restated what I wrote above...

Well you'll have to forgive me for not reading all the comments in this thread.

Nonetheless, while I somehow suspect we didn't quite say exactly the same thing, in either case I'm sure I worded it differently and maybe a member here will find your explanation clearer, while another might find mine clearer.  I don't believe it's a forum crime to reiterate what someone else said.  (Granted that assumes we said the same thing, which I am not sure is true since I find your comments below this part a bit unclear!)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What if someone had a Deform or Conservative ketubah? Since they are not valid Halachically, would they require an annulment or just a civil divorce?

That's a classic shaila in the 20th century.  I think Rav Moshe had a teshuvah on it that said those are still marriages.  Can't remember exactly but something about the intention of living together and so on.  Oy my memory is totally shot.  Anyway I think it was a machloket with  Rav Henkin.

[The Noachide]

I argued with my Asian girl friends on facebutt last night to stop sympathizing for jacko. He's friggin dead.

[The Noachide]

"Oh but those were rumors" Yeah right

[The Noachide]

Smh

[The Noachide]

"HE WAS INNOCENT!" Lmfao

[nessuno]

Well you'll have to forgive me for not reading all the comments in this thread.

Nonetheless, while I somehow suspect we didn't quite say exactly the same thing, in either case I'm sure I worded it differently and maybe a member here will find your explanation clearer, while another might find mine clearer.  I don't believe it's a forum crime to reiterate what someone else said.  (Granted that assumes we said the same thing, which I am not sure is true since I find your comments below this part a bit unclear!)

I didn't understand Muman's response to be the same.   But then again.... I didn't understand  his or BY's responses fully.   They didn't address what I asked.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Thank you for that explanation.  It was easy to understand.

Catholic annulments are granted on a similar basis.  It is not used as a Catholic 'divorce tool' ( as was suggested by BY) since a valid marriage in the eyes of the church cannot be dissolved.
When Catholic couples seek a divorce it is granted civilly. As for Muman's question about the church and alimony.  It is a mute point ( as they don't grant divorces).  The courts decide alimony and child support ( child support is far more important  in my eyes).  Any parent to a child should not need the church or the courts to tell them to take care of their child, in my opinion.  That is not the case often though. Thus we have divorce laws in this country.  This is as far as I know and I am not an expert on the church or divorce.

As for Catholics who divorce...that is between them and G-d.

So what if a Catholic couple divorces in a civil court and they get re-married to someone else? Is that adultery according to Catholicism? Would they only be able to get a civil wedding and not a Catholic wedding for their second marriage?

[muman613]

I didn't understand Muman's response to be the same.   But then again.... I didn't understand  his or BY's responses fully.   They didn't address what I asked.

Thanks bc3... I was trying to explain that from my understanding of Jewish thought on the topic the concept of annulment seemed different. I don't think BY intentionally was trying to offend anyone though, and this is why I wanted to try to explain what I did.

Thanks again.

[nessuno]

So what if a Catholic couple divorces in a civil court and they get re-married to someone else? Is that adultery according to Catholicism? Would they only be able to get a civil wedding and not a Catholic wedding for their second marriage?

Yes and Yes, unless there was an ANNULMENT.  What is your point BY?
No big white dresses or church marriage the second time around (without an annulment,) if you are Catholic.
People live with the consequences of their own behavior.
You should not so much worry about the Catholics relationship with G-d (unless you are personally impacted by it)...only your own.

[nessuno]

Thanks bc3... I was trying to explain that from my understanding of Jewish thought on the topic the concept of annulment seemed different. I don't think BY intentionally was trying to offend anyone though, and this is why I wanted to try to explain what I did.

Thanks again.

I understood that you were speaking from your own understanding and were trying to help Yacov out.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So what if a Catholic couple divorces in a civil court and they get re-married to someone else? Is that adultery according to Catholicism? Would they only be able to get a civil wedding and not a Catholic wedding for their second marriage?

Not to discourage intellectual curiosity or anything, but it's difficult to fathom why this matters to you.