David Horowitz: “Zimmerman a Guilty Liar”; he is also pro-gun laws

[Lisa]

Welcome to JTF, David. 

While you're here, I would like you to take a look around, and learn more about the head of this movement, Chaim Ben Pesach, who was Rabbi Meir Kahane's right hand man when he ran the JDL. 

I think you and Chaim should work together.  You'll find him to be fascinating.  Why not start with an interview on Frontpagemag.com?

[Israel Chai]

Shalom David,

I for one accept your explanation and I continue supporting your noble efforts to further the conservative, pro-Israel, and anti-Sharia causes.

Thank you for your explanation.

So he is the guy that runs frontpagemag. He publishes DG. I don't know of a single regular Sultan Knish reader who isn't completely sane, and refuse to accept that the man who publishes him is anything less than a hero. Shame on those that judged him on a lashon hara before knowing the facts.

And I could not be more honored than to be posting on the same thread as the great Mr. Horowitz. May G-d bless you and your work, sir.

I am not trying to be a butthead but does anyone else find this nickname somewhat offensive. I realize it is an insult to islam, but the C word is not a 'tzniut' kind of word. Unless I am just not hip to what the kids say today?

Please accept my apology Muman, and I say please because I know you understand me, and my intention, and that it wasn't to cause you offense, but it was stupid, so this apology is in order.

[muman613]

Shalom LKZ,

I was not even aware it was you.... I certainly appreciate your changing your name from what it was before. While I fully support using anatomical terms for medical use, I think seeing those kinds of words over and over again may lead some to 'improper thoughts' if you know what I mean.

And I agree it is awesome that David personally responded to this thread and I hope we can work together with him.

[Israel Chai]

Shalom LKZ,

I was not even aware it was you.... I certainly appreciate your changing your name from what it was before. While I fully support using anatomical terms for medical use, I think seeing those kinds of words over and over again may lead some to 'improper thoughts' if you know what I mean.

And I agree it is awesome that David personally responded to this thread and I hope we can work together with him.

An honor that he did, a shame he had to on such unfortunate circumstances.

As for his statement, I agree with his explanation, but disagree that Zimmerman should be punished, because there is no law that one should call the police when they see something suspicious in their neighborhood, and especially not one concerning a neighborhood watch. A crime is what they have to report, their job is to observe, and to question. Saying that he should have called the cops because there was a black kid late at night is typical liberal racism, and sluggish reliance on law-enforcement today is not something I would advocate for a litany of rationales.

I find that the question, "what should have been done" is best answered through the lens of "what should be done next time", which is better understood by "what are we trying to accomplish/prevent?". To have the neighborhood watch scared to talk to anyone won't reduce crime, and will show the NBP how much "progress" they can make with this; "pardon one crime, and you encourage the commission of many" Cicero. This is where the conversation veers away from imaginary places where things have easy solutions and endings, and gets frustrating. We are trying to prevent both crime in the surburbias, and violence against criminal youths. We are also saying that next time, we should be quick to call the police instead of talking to suspicious people, and that we have to protect kids from people trying to enforce the law.

What should have been done instead of shooting the kid? What should have been done instead of talking to the kid? The first question left Zimmerman with only death as a remaining option, so many of our goals in wanting to punish him are unfair and illogical. The second question is resolved by calling the cops every time we see a black guy at night, or by gutting the rights of neighborhood watch volunteers, which will turn entire neighborhoods into Zimmermans, or into
Lara Logans.

I don't have solutions, but it's plain that the solutions presented by the lib media won't work.

[Israel Chai]

Regardless of my difference of opinion with Mr. Horowitz, I believe he was wronged and is owed an apology. Demand one to him from Debs [email protected] .

[Israel Chai]

http://weaselzippers.us/2013/07/10/unreal-documents-show-doj-helped-organize-and-support-anti-zimmerman-protests-including-al-sharptons/
(daily caller source)

Let it be said that I can empathize with the desire to feel frustration with anyone attacking Zimmerman, as this case and the media crimes, including posting his SIN number on air, are an affront to justice.

Lying to achieve justice is a twisted ironic affront to it, though.

[Mein Koran]

David u should hire me, I defended you from the beginning. Amen

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Amazing that people think they are God and can determine that someone is lying.   Horowitz... what a disappointment.

According to Debbie Schlussel he still supports the Black Panthers. Debbie has been right about most of the faces in the so-called conservative movement, such as Scamela Nazi Geller.

[muman613]

According to Debbie Schlussel he still supports the Black Panthers. Debbie has been right about most of the faces in the so-called conservative movement, such as Scamela Nazi Geller.

You only wish you have accomplished as much as Pamela Geller has. Jealousy distorts your vision.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well, it seems like a fair response from David.  Perhaps we rushed to judgement and Debbie wasn't careful enough with her wording.  I would like to see how she responds to these statements.

Is it really THE David Horowitz posting here?  If so, I am happy he joined and felt it worthwhile to clear his name in these halls.  That being said, I kind of suspect it may simply be one of his followers who joined under his name and just pasted the response here from somewhere David wrote it.   Anyone know if this appears anywhere else?

[kahaneloyalist]

Well, it seems like a fair response from David.  Perhaps we rushed to judgement and Debbie wasn't careful enough with her wording.  I would like to see how she responds to these statements.

Is it really THE David Horowitz posting here?  If so, I am happy he joined and felt it worthwhile to clear his name in these halls.  That being said, I kind of suspect it may simply be one of his followers who joined under his name and just pasted the response here from somewhere David wrote it.   Anyone know if this appears anywhere else?

I have found the exact same text on the JDL UK facebook page.

[Lisa]

I sent "David" a private message asking if he was *the* David Horowitz of Front Page Magazine.  I never received a reply.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

You only wish you have accomplished as much as Pamela Geller has. Jealousy distorts your vision.

בס''ד

Pamela Geller has never accomplished anything. The fact that she attacks JTF to try to make herself "respectable" proves she is a big phony.

It would be nice if we got a little loyalty from our own members when our organization is unfairly attacked.

[muman613]

בס''ד

Muman, your remarks are way out of line.

Pamela Geller has never accomplished anything. The fact that she attacks JTF to try to make herself "respectable" proves she is a big phony.

It would be nice if we got a little loyalty from our own members when our organization is unfairly attacked.

What was the nature of this attack. From what I heard she 'disassociated' from JTF which I can understand. There are reasons why some people may not want to be linked with our organization and as long as they don't besmirch JTF and only don't want to be associated, I can cut them slack. I explained this in a previous post.

It is incorrect to say that Pamela has not accomplished anything. All one needs to do is do a google search or a youtube search and you will find that she is involved with a heck of a lot of anti-Islam projects including an ad campaign on buses and subways, and she has received international press along with Robert Spencer in advancing the cause of alerting the masses to the evils of Islam.

While I think JTF has a great message, I don't think it is as 'mainstream' as Pamela Geller who gets invited to speak all over the western world. In the arsenal of getting the message out about Islam I find Pamella Geller to be an Excellent source for this. She doesn't come off as extreme, and this is why I think she would not want to be associated with us. I am not famous and I don't expect to be famous, thus I don't think my involvement with this forum will detract from my ability to make a living.

I know many people who are not quite Kahanists who agree with Pamela and this is why I support her work.

Not to contradict your statement Chaim, but maybe you are not aware of the projects Pamela is involved with:

Anti Ground-Zero mosque work

Geller and Robert Spencer co-founded Stop Islamization of America.[10] In May 2010, they began a strong campaign against the proposed Park51 Islamic community center and mosque, which Geller has referred to as the "Ground Zero Mega Mosque".[35][36] She says that Park51 is viewed by Muslims as a "triumphal" monument built on "conquered land". She also appeared on a number of cable news shows speaking out against the proposed Islamic community center and mosque.[16] Stop Islamization of America has sponsored ads which carry messages such as "Fatwa on Your Head?" and "Leaving Islam?" in several cities including New York City and Miami, pointing readers to a website called RefugefromIslam.com.[16][37] Geller said the ads were meant to provide resources for Muslims who were afraid to leave the religion.[37]

Geller first blogged in Atlas Shrugs about the proposed New York mosque in reaction to coverage in The New York Times on December 8, 2009.[38][39] On December 21, she again blogged on the subject, referring to it as "Mosque at Ground Zero" and calling it "a stab in the eye".[40] Geller next blogged about the building on May 24, 2010, when she reported on a self-selected reader poll connected with a report in the New York Daily News, urging her readers to vote in it. This is when she first used the phrase "Mega Mosque at Ground Zero".[41][42]

Her pro-Israel anti-Islam agenda:

In an interview, Geller said "I have no problem with Islam. I have a problem with political Islam."[8] Rabbi Michael White and Jerome Davidson, denouncing Geller as an anti-Muslim bigot, opposed her presentation at a Long Island Synagogue. Caroline Glick argues that they are unfair to Geller's selective opposition to jihadi and her sympathy for their Muslim victims as well as non-Muslim victims.[27] Charles Jacobs notes that Geller takes aim at "radical Islam," comes to the defense of victims of honor killings, and deals with Islamist antisemitism which the ADL and SPLC fail to address.[28] Cathy Young, however, faults Geller for failing to hold that Islam can be reformed or evolve into a moderate religion.[29]

In 2008, Geller co-wrote an editorial for Arutz Sheva expressing her distaste for fellow Jews who are not politically conservative:

It galls me that the Jews I fight for are self-destructive, suicidal even. Here in America (and the world over), Israel's real friends are in the Republican Party and yet over 80% of American Jews are Democrats. I don't get it. The conventional wisdom on the Left is that Israel is an oppressor and her actions are worse than the world's most depraved and dangerous regimes. Chomsky, Finkelstein, Soros – these men are the killers.[30]

She encouraged Israel to "stand loud and proud. Give up nothing. Turn over not a pebble. For every rocket fired, drop a MOAB. Take back Gaza. Secure Judea and Samaria. Stop buying Haaretz. Throw leftists bums out."[30] She is an ardent Zionist.[31]

She co-authored a book with Spencer, The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War on America, with a foreword by former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John R. Bolton, which was published in July 2010.[3] The book criticizes the Obama administration's treatment of the free-market system, freedom of speech, and foreign policy.

She is also a contributor to the conservative magazine Human Events.[32]

She is a supporter of the English Defence League (EDL) saying: "I share the EDL's goals ... We need to encourage rational, reasonable groups that oppose the Islamisation of the west."[33][24][34] In June 2013, she was scheduled to speak at an EDL rally but was barred from entering Britain by a Home Office ruling that describes her as having established "anti-Muslim hate groups".[9] Geller called the decision "a striking blow against freedom ... The nation that gave the world the Magna Carta is dead." Hope not Hate, which led a campaign to ban her, applauded the decision as a proper limit to "unfettered free speech".[9]

Her blog:

The name of Geller's website and blog Atlas Shrugs is a reference to novelist and philosopher Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged.[1][24] Geller calls Rand "the greatest philosopher in human history". She says her blog and its purpose are "clearly defined by Rand's philosophy".[48] The blog concentrates on what Geller perceives to be a violent threat to the United States by Islamist extremists and liberal politicians.[49][non-primary source needed]

As of October 2010, the blog was receiving 150,000 unique visitors a month.[1]

In 2006, when thousands of Muslims worldwide protested – sometimes violently – over cartoons of the Islamic prophet Muhammad printed in a Danish newspaper,[1][50][51][52][53] Geller posted the cartoons on her blog,[1][54] and its hits increased dramatically to tens of thousands.[1]

NPR reported that in 2008, for Atlas Shrugs, she examined lists of contributions given to Barack Obama's presidential campaign. Others, including The New York Times and The Washington Post, then did the same.[55] Contributors with the names "Es Ech", "Doodad Pro", and similar names turned up, and a conservative activist said he donated to Obama's campaign using the name Osama bin Laden.[55]

In November 2008, she captured a conversation by Representative Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) on video, and posted it on YouTube.[56] In it, after prefacing his remarks by saying he had "no personal knowledge" of the matter and his statement was merely his "guess", he went on to say that Obama "didn’t have the political courage to want to make the statement of walking out" of Trinity United Church of Christ when he realized that Rev. Jeremiah Wright was "a nut" and "lunatic", because "you don’t walk out of a church with 8,000 members in your district".[56][57][58] After Geller released the video, Nadler said: "I made a thoughtless comment yesterday which does not reflect the way I feel about Barack Obama".[57][58]

Also in 2008 Geller posted a letter saying that Malcolm X had impregnated Ann Dunham, Barack Obama's mother. After the theory was posted, the conspiracy theory gained notoriety and led Keith Olbermann to label her "the worst person in the world" during the eponymous segment of Countdown with Keith Olbermann.[19]

The blog was among the first on November 5, 2009, to opine that the Fort Hood shooting was a "Muslim terror attack."[49] Geller later noted that the recent Pentagon report into the Fort Hood shooting did not mention possible religious motivations behind the attack, and argued that self-imposed censorship is hurting U.S. understanding of the wars it is engaged in.[59] She said: "When nowhere in that document was Islam or Jihad mentioned, then Houston, we have a problem. People need to understand what is the motivation."[59]

So while she may not be JTF material, I am willing to co-exist with her without detracting from her good works...

[muman613]

I would defend JTF to her if I could talk with her.... If she 'attacked' JTF I would have an issue, but I think she was trying to distance herself from us I could forgive her. Even if she said we were 'extreme' I could excuse her.

But I will defend JTF against any attacks.

[muman613]

Chaim,

Have you ever considered writing a book? I believe you have been asked a number of times but I can't recall hearing whether you have started a manuscript or not. I believe if you published a book and got some more exposure in the media, you could have a higher profile than Pamella. I think it is not too hard to get a book published today (either self-published or via a publishing house). I have a friend in my minyan who has a book which is sold on Amazon.com and he could help with advice on how to publish your book.

[muman613]

See this discussion for when the EDL / JTF flap happened in 2011...

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php?topic=56978.0

[Mishmaat]

I would defend JTF to her if I could talk with her.... If she 'attacked' JTF I would have an issue, but I think she was trying to distance herself from us I could forgive her. Even if she said we were 'extreme' I could excuse her.

But I will defend JTF against any attacks.

Quit making excuses for this whore. Her condemnation of JTF is deplorable. She is a self-serving opportunist with no real principles who has chosen the popular path in order to get in with the "conservative" establishment and be a talking head on Fox News. This whore still refers to Islam as "radical."

As far as her accomplishments are concerned, she makes a lot of noise ultimately signifying nothing.

Chaim,

Have you ever considered writing a book? I believe you have been asked a number of times but I can't recall hearing whether you have started a manuscript or not. I believe if you published a book and got some more exposure in the media, you could have a higher profile than Pamella. I think it is not too hard to get a book published today (either self-published or via a publishing house). I have a friend in my minyan who has a book which is sold on Amazon.com and he could help with advice on how to publish your book.

Time constraints.

[muman613]

Quit making excuses for this whore. Her condemnation of JTF is deplorable. She is a self-serving opportunist with no real principles who has chosen the popular path in order to get in with the "conservative" establishment and be a talking head on Fox News. This whore still refers to Islam as "radical."

As far as her accomplishments are concerned, she makes a lot of noise ultimately signifying nothing.

Time constraints.

What exactly is this condemnation? In the thread from 2011 it appears that she basically didn't think it was good idea for EDL to work with JTF. Was this 'condemnation' published? If so could you provide a link?

I really see this as a bunch of sour grapes... To deny that she has made an influence on the discussion of islam is simply delusional.

And I just don't get some people here. By praising others we do not detract from Chaims importance. I certainly believe Chaim has a great message, and his work is stellar, but I also support others and I am not ashamed of doing so. I believe Pamelas message is better suited towards women (those who I have turned on to Pamela have accepted the message fully).

There is no one-size-fits-all spokesperson who will influence everyone. Pamela and Robert certainly have done great work (the anti ground zero mosque got a lot of attention, so too the billboards on buses) and I do not regret supporting them.

This should not make my support for JTF any less... Unless you judge me with short-sighted judgment.

[muman613]

Just to make a point here are some media coverage of her efforts:









Now I think JTF youtube videos are nice.... But how about putting more JTF effort into public advertisements, publishing books and pamphlets, and doing media interviews... I believe Chaim could be even greater than Pamela if only the right Public Relations efforts were made.

[Mishmaat]

What exactly is this condemnation? In the thread from 2011 it appears that she basically didn't think it was good idea for EDL to work with JTF. Was this 'condemnation' published? If so could you provide a link?

I really see this as a bunch of sour grapes... To deny that she has made an influence on the discussion of islam is simply delusional.

And I just don't get some people here. By praising others we do not detract from Chaims importance. I certainly believe Chaim has a great message, and his work is stellar, but I also support others and I am not ashamed of doing so. I believe Pamelas message is better suited towards women (those who I have turned on to Pamela have accepted the message fully).

There is no one-size-fits-all spokesperson who will influence everyone. Pamela and Robert certainly have done great work (the anti ground zero mosque got a lot of attention, so too the billboards on buses) and I do not regret supporting them.

This should not make my support for JTF any less... Unless you judge me with short-sighted judgment.

I'm only judging Pamela Geller. Not you. If you want to support her. Fine. Whatever.

I will continue to condemn her though if she is mentioned on this forum. She should of kept her mouth shut concerning JTF.

[muman613]

I'm only judging Pamela Geller. Not you. If you want to support her. Fine. Whatever.

I will continue to condemn her though if she is mentioned on this forum. She should of kept her mouth shut concerning JTF.

I respect your decision also. I would of course have been happier if she fully accepted the JTF message and turned people in her audience onto the JTF forum... I may attempt to influence her if I could get a hold of her email... Maybe I will check out her blog which I must admit I have never visited.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As far as her accomplishments are concerned, she makes a lot of noise ultimately signifying nothing.

Paraphrasing the best line in MacBeth.

[nessuno]

What exactly is this condemnation? In the thread from 2011 it appears that she basically didn't think it was good idea for EDL to work with JTF. Was this 'condemnation' published? If so could you provide a link?

I really see this as a bunch of sour grapes... To deny that she has made an influence on the discussion of islam is simply delusional.

And I just don't get some people here. By praising others we do not detract from Chaims importance. I certainly believe Chaim has a great message, and his work is stellar, but I also support others and I am not ashamed of doing so. I believe Pamelas message is better suited towards women (those who I have turned on to Pamela have accepted the message fully).

There is no one-size-fits-all spokesperson who will influence everyone. Pamela and Robert certainly have done great work (the anti ground zero mosque got a lot of attention, so too the billboards on buses) and I do not regret supporting them.

This should not make my support for JTF any less... Unless you judge me with short-sighted judgment.

Why better suited towards women?  You make it sound like women are so stupid they need to have their messages wrapped up in a leopard skin outfit. 
I think Pamela Geller looks so unprofessional, that I stop listening when I see her. 
You also make the forum members sound like a bunch of sour grapes.  Did you ever think that they have an opinion of Pamela Geller, and are not just defending Chaim and JTF, based on her actions?  What is wrong with defending JTF anyway?  They do hard work....without accolades.
It always sounds like you have sour grapes when it comes to Chaim and JTF.
Like you are a  bit above it all.  I'm sure we all support others and are all entitled to our own opinions.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What exactly is this condemnation? In the thread from 2011 it appears that she basically didn't think it was good idea for EDL to work with JTF. Was this 'condemnation' published? If so could you provide a link?

I really see this as a bunch of sour grapes... To deny that she has made an influence on the discussion of islam is simply delusional.There is no one-size-fits-all spokesperson who will influence everyone. Pamela and Robert certainly have done great work (the anti ground zero mosque got a lot of attention, so too the billboards on buses) and I do not regret supporting them.

You got amnesia and we have to remind you exactly what she did every time the subject comes up?  Hasn't this already been hashed out here numerous times?  Even between me and you personally?