Rav Ovadia Yosef the spiritual leaders of shas is dead

[muman613]

I guess Rav Ovadia Yosef was naive, not evil, then..  In that respect, can we say the rabbis of Neturei Karta are evil, since they also believe that by giving Israel to the Arabs there will be peace and will bring Moshiach?   This now has become a very complicated and confusing subject to me.   

In my opinion, anybody who thinks they can partition the land and give it to the enemies for whatever reason, is warring against Hashem.  To allow Israel to become a land of idolatrous pagans (the Muslims) to me seems evil.  Also, shouldn't we Jews be vigilant in defending the land that Hashem has given to us, rather than begging for mercy and agreeing to make concessions?

EJa22...

Where, from Jewish sages, do you learn that Muslims are idolatrous pagans? As far as all the sages go, Islam is a monotheistic religion. (See Rambam)...

This is not defending muslims, but it is a fact that the children of Ishmael (son of Abraham) have kept a mostly monotheistic religion.

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48949566.html

Mohammed's Vision

Mohammed was repelled by the cruel and crude reality around him. In the year 610, at the age of 40, he escaped to a desert cave where, according to Muslim tradition, he experienced a series of mystical visions, including revelations from the Angel Gabriel. He returned from the desert imbued with a spiritual mission to transform the pagan society around him.

Preaching an end to licentiousness and need for peace, justice and social responsibility, Muhammad advocated improving the lot of slaves, orphans, women and the poor, and replacing tribal loyalties with the fellowship of a new monotheistic faith ― which he called Islam, meaning "surrender to God." (One who submits is a Muslim.)

Islam, according to Mohammed, was built on five pillars:

* Faith in one God ("there is no God but Allah")
* Prayer (five times a day)
* Charity (2.5% of one's income)
* Pilgrimage to Mecca called Haj (once in a lifetime)
* Fasting (a fast lasting from dawn to dusk for 30 days during the month of Ramadan)

Another fundamental principle of Islam is Jihad. ( While most people think the term Jihad means holy war the actual meaning of Jihad is "struggle" and can be used to refer to both the internal struggle between good and evil that occurs with in all of us as well as external struggle between the world of the Muslim (dhar al Islam) and the world of the non-Muslim called the World of War (dhar al Hare). The earliest use of the term Jihad as mentioned in 7th century Islamic law codes (sharia) refers to external struggle against the non-Islamic world.) (1)

I agree that Rav Yosefs ruling concerning Pikuach Nefesh in regards to giving land seems in error. But we are not on the level to argue the halachic implications of this ruling. We need other gedolim who can find errors in his reason.

[Every Jew AK47]

EJa22...

Where, from Jewish sages, do you learn that Muslims are idolatrous pagans? As far as all the sages go, Islam is a monotheistic religion. (See Rambam)...

This is not defending muslims, but it is a fact that the children of Ishmael (son of Abraham) have kept a mostly monotheistic religion.

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48949566.html

Sorry , we disagree.. It sounds like you don't know the origins of Islam... I don't need to read some liberal BS articles about how Islam is a respectable, non-idolatrous monotheistic religion, when in fact the moon g_d al-Ilah , the moon g_d of blood and war was the greatest of the many g_ds the arabs worshipped.  Mohammad promoted the moon g_d as he knew it would unite the tribes and gain him power.  However, all_h is an idolatrous, gluttonous, murderous and diabolic g_d..  He craves the flesh of young innocent girls, he is a glutton, thief and a barbarian.  Monotheistic means little here..

As far as idols, the Muslims are the worst of idol worshippers. They put up the idol of the moon g_d, the crescent shaped moon on every mosque.  And, every year, millions of Muslims make pilgrimage to Hajj to worship a big black box..  What greater form of idol worship is there than that???

[muman613]

Sorry , we disagree.. It sounds like you don't know the origins of Islam... I don't need to read some liberal BS articles about how Islam is a respectable, non-idolatrous monotheistic religion, when in fact the moon g_d al-Ilah , the moon g_d of blood and war was the greatest of the many g_ds the arabs worshipped.  Mohammad promoted the moon g_d as he knew it would unite the tribes and gain him power.  However, all_h is an idolatrous, gluttonous, murderous and diabolic g_d..  He craves the flesh of young innocent girls, he is a glutton, thief and a barbarian.  Monotheistic means little here..

As far as idols, the Muslims are the worst of idol worshippers. They put up the idol of the moon g_d, the crescent shaped moon on every mosque.  And, every year, millions of Muslims make pilgrimage to Hajj to worship a big black box..  What greater form of idol worship is there than that???

This is your opinion... Please quote a sage...

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5772/bo.html

Regarding Islam, however, most poskim follow the opinion of the Rambam[12] that it is not considered avodah zarah[13]. Hence they do not expressly forbid entering a mosque[14]. Other poskim forbid entering a mosque as well[15]. All agree that unless there is a compelling reason to do so, mosques are off limits for any G-d-fearing Jew.

12. Hilchos Ma’achalos Assuros 11:7.

[Every Jew AK47]

This is your opinion... Please quote a sage...

I don't need to quote a sage.. I will quote historians who have done thorough research on the origins of Islam...   Can you tell me the origins of the Kabbah or the Crescent shape moon?   

When I get time, I will post some articles discussing the pagan origins of Islam and the idolatrous nature of this religion, including these sacred objects they worship..  Just because they mix arab paganism with Judaic and CHristian teachings, doesn't make the religion any less pagan or idolatrous.

[muman613]

I don't need to quote a sage.. I will quote historians who have done thorough research on the origins of Islam...   Can you tell me the origins of the Kabbah or the Crescent shape moon?   

When I get time, I will post some articles discussing the pagan origins of Islam and the idolatrous nature of this religion, including these sacred objects they worship..  Just because they mix arab paganism with Judaic and CHristian teachings, doesn't make the religion any less pagan or idolatrous.

Do you respect Rambam? Can you explain why he doesn't find a problem with a Jew going to a Mosque?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 Muman - its most, I dont think all. Definitely not a good thing though to make a new religion. Also he refers to muhammed as the "insane one".

 Also (and I dont know much about this in general) but his objection was to a certain Rabbi that said that those Jews who were forcible converted to Islam are basically like idolaters. He said that they are not and they didn't have to give up their lives when faced with "convert and die" in the case of Islam. They can also enter a Mosque without a problem because it is basically like nothing. Not a Holy place and not a place of idolatry. But just like someone's apartment or something.

[muman613]

I don't need to quote a sage.. I will quote historians who have done thorough research on the origins of Islam...   Can you tell me the origins of the Kabbah or the Crescent shape moon?   

When I get time, I will post some articles discussing the pagan origins of Islam and the idolatrous nature of this religion, including these sacred objects they worship..  Just because they mix arab paganism with Judaic and CHristian teachings, doesn't make the religion any less pagan or idolatrous.

I don't have time to argue about this now but basically that Aish article explains how Mohamud brought the faith to the pagan arabs who did worship the moon god. It was his goal to remove such Avodah Zara... Did he succeed, I am no muslim scholar. But I believe that today the only deity which muslims worship is called allah.

I would like to see the opinions of the sages on this topic but am mainly aware of Maimonides opinion which I provided above.

[muman613]

Muman- its most, I dont think all. Definitely not a good thing though to make a new religion. Also he refers to muhammed as the "insane one".

I do not think Islam is a good thing. It came about due to Ishmael's descendants jealousy for the Jewish people. This is my opinion.

[muman613]

The nations can accuse us of polytheism and have done so based on misunderstanding the statement "Let us make man..." and also the fact that the Torah uses two main names for our G-d, Hashem (The tetragrammaton) and Elohim.... Some actually believe they are two different entities, but we know that Hashem is Elohim...

[Every Jew AK47]

Do you respect Rambam? Can you explain why he doesn't find a problem with a Jew going to a Mosque?

I deeply respect Rambam, but I also look at the context of Rambam's situation.  He was friends with the Sufis who saved his life and whom he lived among.  Indeed, at the time Christians were exterminating the Jews and the Sufi Sultan gave him refuge..  However, Rambam was not exposed to the more prevalent and barbaric Salafi sects of Islam that are widespread today.  ANd, as much as I respect Rambam, there are things about his views on Islam that I think have not been researched, as the information was not available to him as we have today..  He would have had no way of knowing the origins of the Kabbah, crescent moon and other pagan factors of Islam.  He may have taken them at face value at the time.. 

I am not a Jewish scholar, but I use historical evidence and research , rather than Rambam's teachings as my utlimate source of knowledge on Islam.  I believe Rambam's teachings about Judaism are of greatest importance, but I do not look to him for a deep historical analysis of the Islamic religion.  He is a Jewish scholar, not an Islamic scholar.

I am a bit confused why you , a Kahanist Jew, would go out of your way to defend Muslims, our enemies???  What are you trying to achieve anyway?   

You also have not answered my questions about the origins of the Kabbah and crescent moon?   Are you telling me millions of muslims surrounding and worshipping the black stone that houses all_h, the moon god is not idol worship?

[muman613]

I am not defending them. Islam is MY PERSONAL ENEMY. I am only arguing for the sake of truth.

As a victim of Muslim terror I would like to believe that everything is happening according to Hashems will. I believe that Ishmaels descendants are playing a major role in bringing about the final redemption of the Jewish people.

It is hard to explain and maybe I will write more about it this evening (but I am at work and don't have a lot of time now)...

But I am just repeating what I learned in a discussion about whether we Jews can go to Churches or Mosques and what Rambam said concerning the matter of whether islam is avodah zara.

[muman613]

EJa44,

Again I don't have a lot of time to do the research (which I just may do this evening) but I would turn around with a question.

Could an observer say that 1000s of Jews praying to a wall is not avodah zarah?

We know that it is not. Either is praying at the grave of a tzadik...

[muman613]

Islam has no place in Israel and when the time has come all mosques will disappear from the land, so too all places of Worship where strange 'gods' are worshiped.

I do not believe Allah is Hashem. I have thought long and hard on the topic and believe that Allah may be a force which we call Elohim but Elohim is not G-d, it is an aspect of G-d (his more relevant aspect is Yud Kay...)...

[Every Jew AK47]

EJa44,

Again I don't have a lot of time to do the research (which I just may do this evening) but I would turn around with a question.

Could an observer say that 1000s of Jews praying to a wall is not avodah zarah?

We know that it is not. Either is praying at the grave of a tzadik...

I too am busy, but I will make one quick comment about the difference of the Kotel and the Kabbah.  We Jews don't believe that Hashem lives within the KOtel, but rather that his presence dwells there, as it is the Throne of the King and the place where the Temple was housed.    The Muslims believe the Kabbah itself houses their g_d and the Kabbah itself has special powers..   Praying at the Wall is no different than us walking into the Temple to pray, as it is the place our Temple once stood.  The Kabbah is an artifact that is worshiped, as through the Kabbah itself.

If you study the origins of the Kabbah, you will learn it is a pagan artifact that pre-dates Islam.. The artifact itself is all_h, and through this object all_h is summoned.. Basically, the Kabbah is the physical representation of the moon deity.

The muslims also carried scimitars which were in the shape of the crescent moon.. They used the scimitars to slay their enemies because it was considered a sacred object ..The moon g_d all_h is always hungry for blood and slaying flesh with a crescent moon is suppose to be a sign of honor to feed the moon g_d all_h who is always hungry for blood.  The moon g_d is very violent and needs the blood of his enemies for nourishment.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

EveryJew- He knew of the Kaabah, about Islam about the sciences and knowledge in general much more then me and you and everyone here. As did other sages. Some did hold it is Avodah Zara others did not. Its a different discussion, we had it here before as well, perhaps you can find it its a separate thread.

[muman613]

I too am busy, but I will make one quick comment about the difference of the Kotel and the Kabbah.  We Jews don't believe that Hashem lives within the KOtel, but rather that his presence dwells there, as it is the Throne of the King and the place where the Temple was housed.    The Muslims believe the Kabbah itself houses their g_d and the Kabbah itself has special powers..   Praying at the Wall is no different than us walking into the Temple to pray, as it is the place our Temple once stood.  The Kabbah is an artifact that is worshiped, as through the Kabbah itself.

If you study the origins of the Kabbah, you will learn it is a pagan artifact that pre-dates Islam.. The artifact itself is all_h, and through this object all_h is summoned.. Basically, the Kabbah is the physical representation of the moon deity.

The muslims also carried scimitars which were in the shape of the crescent moon.. They used the scimitars to slay their enemies because it was considered a sacred object ..The moon g_d all_h is always hungry for blood and slaying flesh with a crescent moon is suppose to be a sign of honor to feed the moon g_d all_h who is always hungry for blood.  The moon g_d is very violent and needs the blood of his enemies for nourishment.

I will take your word. In general I do not pay attention to 'comparative religion' as I am only concerned with what is important as a Jew. We are not supposed to even mention the name of others g-ds.

[Every Jew AK47]

EveryJew- He knew of the Kaabah, about Islam about the sciences and knowledge in general much more then me and you and everyone here. As did other sages. Some did hold it is Avodah Zara others did not. Its a different discussion, we had it here before as well, perhaps you can find it its a separate thread.

I would certainly like to learn about what Rambam thought about the Kaabah  (pardon my spelling)..  I wasn't sure how much knowledge he could have had, since it's location was far from where he lived and considering the wars that were being fought during the time.

[Kabili]

Muman613 your the most respectful person on this forum. The Rav was a holy rabbi. This top should be called Maran Ovadia Yosef ZTL passes away.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I would certainly like to learn about what Rambam thought about the Kaabah  (pardon my spelling)..  I wasn't sure how much knowledge he could have had, since it's location was far from where he lived and considering the wars that were being fought during the time.

From Edu- And I saw this as well in his book.
"Rambam admitted that Muslims incorporated within their worship, pagan practices of throwing stones at Markolis, as well as pagan practices associated with the worship of the idols, Peor (mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 25:18) and Kemosh (mentioned in Bamidbar/Numbers 21:29).
But Rambam’s contention is that because the Muslims have monotheistic intentions when they do these things or bow in their houses of worship, this is a reason to exempt them from the severe sin of idolatry. He adds that the foolishness and the stupidity of the Yishmaelites are in other areas, but that he could not put it in writing because the wicked of Israel might inform on him {to the Muslims} regarding what he wrote. "

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,70842.0.html


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Anyway this whole discussion is sidetracked. I dont care about Islam and the question if idol worship or not. Gentiles have other Misswoth including prohibition against murder and to establish courts of Justice that bring them to justice that is the crux of the "beef" with them (muslims today).

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/172608#.UlMon1Drxpc

Police: Rabbi Yosef's Funeral Largest in Israel's History
Some 10% of Israel's population attended the funeral of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Monday night in Jerusalem, police said.

 Others reported at over 1 million people.

[muman613]

I am impressed at the turnout of people to the Rabbis leviah..

[Kabili]

This just shows the holiness of this Rabbi

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ROY also state that Arabs are brothers of the Jews and that their lives should be spared if possible?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Islam has no place in Israel and when the time has come all mosques will disappear from the land, so too all places of Worship where strange 'gods' are worshiped.

I do not believe Allah is Hashem. I have thought long and hard on the topic and believe that Allah may be a force which we call Elohim but Elohim is not G-d, it is an aspect of G-d (his more relevant aspect is Yud Kay...)...

I'm not going to get into the "what is Islam" debate, but how is the "aspects of God" thing you are referring to here different from the concept of a trinity? Just a question...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I'm not going to get into the "what is Islam" debate, but how is the "aspects of God" thing you are referring to here different from the concept of a trinity? Just a question...

The Trinity is much older than Christianity and was not part of the early teachings... Once you apply Jesus to the Trinity he becomes a man/G-d, and once you pray to him to pray to G-d he becomes an idol. You are putting him before G-d. In my opinion Jesus was the son of G-d as we all are the children of HaShem.