Author Topic: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef  (Read 5001 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« on: November 06, 2013, 02:01:27 PM »
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 02:16:59 PM by Tag-MehirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 05:40:21 PM »
Watched most of that talk... Gotta say I haven't changed my opinion of that Rabbi... It is clear that it was a mistake, but I cannot believe that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef was not aware what the gemara says concerning this topic.


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 06:27:54 PM »
Watched most of that talk... Gotta say I haven't changed my opinion of that Rabbi... It is clear that it was a mistake, but I cannot believe that Rabbi Ovadia Yosef was not aware what the gemara says concerning this topic.





 You didn't listen to it correctly. By the way the video you posted and Rav Ovadia's position are the same technically (both agree to land for peace in theory).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 08:52:27 PM »
I missed where the Rebbe said he supports land for peace. In the video I posted he stated that a Jew must not surrender an inch of land because it will endanger Jewish life, not save it. Tell me how you believe that the Lubavitch Rebbe supported land for peace...

It is clear from listening to all the Rebbes discussions on the topic he would not support giving land for peace. This is because he believed that by giving our land this would reveal weakness which would result in the lives of Jews being placed in danger. It is the OPPOSITE of the land for peace scenario which Rabbi Yosef proposed (that giving land would save lives).

Listen to the Rebbe again and tell me how :

INTRODUCTION:

The Rebbe's approach to Israels security was built on the position of Jewish law that protecting lives must be the only concern of an arrangement, to the exclusion of any other considerations at all.

Here in 1980 shortly after Israel surrendered the Sinai the Rebbe urges the government NOT TO MOVE FORWARD with further concessions.

The Rebbe:

Because we live in a time of intense spiritual darkness, there are some Jews who mistakenly believe that they can achieve peace through an approach contrary to Torah, contrary to an explicit ruling in the Code of Jewish law, in the Laws of Shabbat, Chapter 329: If non-Jews beseige a Jewish villiage - approaching the border of any Jewish area,  whether in the Holy Land or in the Diaspora, for the Talmud cites an example of the city of Nehardea, in Babylon - and the non-Jew state that they come only to pilfer straw, and then leave, since there is the slightest reason to suspect that their true intent is conquest - even if it's just a suspicion, and all the more so when they declare it openly - then because this makes the entire land vulnerable to attack, G-d forbid - no matter whether in the Diaspora or in the Holy Land itself, Jewish law mandates that Jews arm themselves for war, even on Shabbos.

Jews must stand steadfast in this way, this is the only way to bring true 'Peace upon the Land' - "Your fear and dread will be upon them," for we go out with "G-d's mighty arm," not relying on our own strength but upon the strength of the Code of Jewish Law. And this fear and dread will ultimately breed respect, for "All the nations of the earth will see that G-d's Name is upon you, and they will fear you" - they will revere the Jewish people.

Although we take a firm, uncompromising stance, showing that we possess physical weaponry, this is because G-d desires that during this exile we operate according to the natural order and take the necessary steps to deter non-Jews from harming Jews, from harming Jewish observance, and from harming even one single Jew, and from harming Jewish property - doing so, again, in the way Jewish law requires of us.

This is the approach that will cause the nations to respect us.Regardless of what they may have declared a short while earlier, it will be transformed: "Contrive a scheme, but it will be foiled; conspire a plot, but it will not materialize, for G-d is with us" - because we proceed with the authority of Jewish law.

We must unashamedly explain before all the nations that true, we are "scattered and divided amongst the nations"  because we are in exile; but why are we in exile? - Only because G-d sent us there. No non-Jewish nation has any inherent power to harm a Jew; they are only in exile because G-d wills it so.

And so we are preparing ourselves at any moment, to immediately be redeemed.Through complete observance of Torah the cause of exile is annulled - for the exile was caused by only one thing: "Because of our sins, we were exiled from our Land." And at the very moment that we annul the cause of the exile, just as "G-d did not delay them in exile for even the blink of an eye," as occured during the Exodus from Egypt, likewise G-d declares, "I will show you miracles" in our exodus from this exile. But even during the exile, the one and only way for G-d to grant 'Peace upon the land'  - a true peace without apprehension, where "You will sleep without fear," a lasting peace, which will be good for Jews, and the only peace that will be good for non-Jews as well - such a peace can only be attained through the path laid out by Torah, for "All her paths are peaceful," and "Torah was given to make peace in the world," as Maimonides rules explicitly in his code of Jewish law.

This is the one and only way to bring about peace in the world. "The word of our G-d endures forever." All the schemes, Heaven fofend, compromise the integrity of the Land - the complete Holy Land, "The Land which G-d's eyes are always upon, from the beginning of the year to the end" - these schemes compromise the integrity of Torah as well, the completeness of Torah, which has been laid before us as a 'set table,' as clear rulings in Jewish law.

This includes how to identify the 'beginning of the redemption' Moshiach must be the one to usher in this period, only after he influences the entire Jewish people to return to Torah observance, for Moshiach will toil and he will succeed, to bring all Jews back to full observance of Torah and Mitzvot  - and this is the truest meaning of "He will fight the wars of G-d, and succeed."

This is the one and only way to leave exile. Still, G-d declares that even whilst we remain in exile, he is the "Protector of Israel," Who "neither slumbers, nor sleeps." And he has shown us the clear path to reveal this protection openly - through complete adherence to Torah and Mitzvot, including Torah's ruling on security, discussed above.

This will effectively deter our opponents, for as mentioned, we go "With G-d's mighty arm,"  "They will fall silent like stone" - they will stand still in their place like stone; "Fear and dread will fall upon them" - they will withdraw their pressure, and each one of them will return to his place, allowing the Jewish people to peacefully fulfill their mission to make a dwelling place for G-d in this world.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 09:29:57 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 09:00:00 PM »
I missed where the Rebbe said he supports land for peace. In the video I posted he stated that a Jew must not surrender an inch of land because it will endanger Jewish life, not save it. Tell me how you believe that the Lubavitch Rebbe supported land for peace...
I didn't get to watch all of the video Tag posted, but what I got from the little I watched. Was... it is wrong to give up land and if you do, it only will lead to the Gentiles wanting more.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 09:28:16 PM »
I missed where the Rebbe said he supports land for peace. In the video I posted he stated that a Jew must not surrender an inch of land because it will endanger Jewish life, not save it. Tell me how you believe that the Lubavitch Rebbe supported land for peace...

 I meant from the same source of Shulhan Aruch. I also meant that their premise is the same in that its about saving Jewish lives. (As opposed to the other Shitta brought down by Rav Kahane ZTKL that land can't be given even for real "peace".)
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 09:32:36 PM »
I didn't get to watch all of the video Tag posted, but what I got from the little I watched. Was... it is wrong to give up land and if you do, it only will lead to the Gentiles wanting more.

Everyone agrees it is wrong to give land. Rabbi Yosef did make a very foolish error by assuming that peace with these enemies was a possibility. It was pointed out that Yosefs ruling contained the statement that he was only saying that if a TRUE peace could be had with enemies then it is ok to give land. That is a big 'IF' as if peace is possible with Hitler (yemach shemo).

Rabbi Yosef must atone for this mistake, but he did say he was mistaken and that the peace which he envisioned did not appear possible.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 09:33:49 PM »
I meant from the same source of Shulhan Aruch. I also meant that their premise is the same in that its about saving Jewish lives. (As opposed to the other Shitta brought down by Rav Kahane ZTKL that land can't be given even for real "peace".)

Do you consider 'Pikauch Nefesh' an important part of Jewish law?

I do, considering it permits violating Shabbat in order to save a life.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 09:35:10 PM »
I am not aware of how that Shulchan Aruch on Shabbat can be used to justify giving land for peace. Do you have a link to such a discussion?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 09:47:56 PM »
Do you consider 'Pikauch Nefesh' an important part of Jewish law?

I do, considering it permits violating Shabbat in order to save a life.

 Of-course I do. But it doesn't matter if I do or not, its the Halacha when it comes to a situation on Shabbat. Rav Kahane ZTKL on the other hand said that besides the famous 3 sins that everyone brings down (murder, geluyi arayot and idolatry) and besides Hillul Hashem ALSO included as well is the conquest of Eress Yisrael, he had his explanation.
 Rav Ovadia ZTL and the Lubavitcher Rebbe didn't include it. That is the distinction.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 11:09:15 PM »
Of-course I do. But it doesn't matter if I do or not, its the Halacha when it comes to a situation on Shabbat. Rav Kahane ZTKL on the other hand said that besides the famous 3 sins that everyone brings down (murder, geluyi arayot and idolatry) and besides Hillul Hashem ALSO included as well is the conquest of Eress Yisrael, he had his explanation.
 Rav Ovadia ZTL and the Lubavitcher Rebbe didn't include it. That is the distinction.

Interesting. I would like to hear where Rabbi Kahane (Zt'l) brings this from. Isn't it also true that Shabbat takes precedent to building the Beit HaMikdash (Temple). I am not arguing based on this but I would be interested in the entire discussion of Rabbi Kahane.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: Land for Peace and HaRav Ovadia Yosef
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2013, 09:50:55 AM »
Interesting. I would like to hear where Rabbi Kahane (Zt'l) brings this from. Isn't it also true that Shabbat takes precedent to building the Beit HaMikdash (Temple). I am not arguing based on this but I would be interested in the entire discussion of Rabbi Kahane.

 That is his whole argument, where have you been all these years? He was saying that since we had to and have to take over Israel (like in the days of Joshua) then taking over Israel overrides the lives of individual soldiers. Had it no been soo we would never be allowed to fight Cannanites and take over Israel because in every war lives are lost.
  Make a simple search you will find his speeches.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.