The Prohibition to Save the Drowning Idol Worshiper

[edu]

אם ראה גוי עובד עבודה זרה אובד או טובע בנהר, לא יעלנו; ראהו לקוח למות, לא יצילנו.  אבל לאבדו בידו, או לדוחפו לבור, וכיוצא בזה--אסור, מפני שאינו עושה עימנו מלחמה.

Rambam in Mishna Torah Hilchot Avoda Zara 10:1 states:
If one saw a Gentile who is an idol worshiper who is perishing or drowning in the river, do not bring him up. If you see him being taken to put him to death, do not save him. But to cause him to perish by your own hand or to push him into the pit, and similar things to this is forbidden, because he is not making war with us.
Rambam bases the prohibition above upon the Talmud's understanding of Dvarim/Deuteronomy 7:2

See Mishna Brura and Beur Halacha to Shulchan Aruch ,O.C., chapter 330, halacha 2, for situations, where we can be lenient and even ignore the Jewish ideal.
Nevertheless, one should remember this is the Jewish ideal.

[edu]

I will ask a question from Parshat Shmot/Exodus on the Halacha.
Why did Moshe save the daughters of Yitro (Jethro) ? Why was he not worried about the prohibition of saving idol worshipers?
One simple answer is that this took place before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai, so the prohibition was not yet in place.
In addition, the reason given in the Talmud for not saving an idol worshiper is that we be the cause of increasing idol worship in the world. Perhaps Moshe knew the daughters of Yitro (Jethro) would convert, so he thought under the circumstances it was okay to save them.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

--Maybe they weren't idol worshippers at the time because Yitro was at first the Priest of Idol Worshippers, he then dropped everything and went against idolatry. Perhaps Moshe already saw that in Tzipporah his daughters (in fact I think that they were fighting against Yitro's daughters precisely because of this specific reason- because Yitro renounced idolatry).

 --Or another reason- since the Torah wasn't given yet, maybe Moshe didn't know the Halacha.

[muman613]

--Maybe they weren't idol worshippers at the time because Yitro was at first the Priest of Idol Worshippers, he then dropped everything and went against idolatry. Perhaps Moshe already saw that in Tzipporah his daughters (in fact I think that they were fighting against Yitro's daughters precisely because of this specific reason- because Yitro renounced idolatry).

 --Or another reason- since the Torah wasn't given yet, maybe Moshe didn't know the Halacha.

Umm point one is not possible... He saved the daughters of Yitro before he even met Yitro... How could Yitro have renounced Idolatry before Moses arrived? Yitros conversion did not happen till after the splitting of the sea (when yitro came to visit the Am in the desert)...

[muman613]

http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2012/02/06/yitro-5772-2012/

Yitro 5772-2012

“Who is the Real Jethro?”
by Rabbi Ephraim Z. Buchwald

Jethro, a man of great stature and distinction, is first encountered in the Bible in Exodus 2:16. The Torah describes Jethro as Kohen Midian (the Midianite Priest), and the father of seven daughters.

Moses had fled from Egypt, where Pharaoh sought to kill him. When he arrives at the well in the land of Midian, Moses meets Jethro’s seven daughters who have come to water their father’s flocks. Moses saves Jethro’s daughters from the abusive Midianite shepherds and waters Jethro’s flocks. When Jethro hears of Moses’ chivalrous actions, he invites the refugee from Egypt into his home to eat and to dwell with them. Moses soon marries Jethro’s daughter, Tzipporah.

While serving as shepherd for Jethro’s flocks in the wilderness, (Exodus 3:1) Moses receives a calling from G-d to return to Egypt to lead the Children of Israel out of bondage. Moses requests, and receives, permission from Jethro to return to the enslaved people in Egypt (Exodus 4:18).

Since that first textual encounter with Jethro in the early chapters of Exodus, much has transpired. Ten plagues have struck Egypt, Pharaoh and his hosts have drowned in the sea, and the people of Israel have begun their journey to the Promised Land. When the people reach Rephidim, they are attacked by Amalek. Joshua leads the battle against the vicious enemies. With the help of G-d and Moses, Amalek is roundly defeated.

In this week’s parasha, parashat Yitro, Jethro arrives at the camp of Israel together with Moses’ wife, Tzipporah and her children. They meet Moses at Har Ha’Eh’lo’him, the mountain of G-d.

Scripture reports, in Exodus 18:7, that upon Jethro’s arrival, “Va’yay’tzay Moshe lik’raht choht’no va’yish’tah’choo va’yee’shahk lo,” Moses personally went out to meet his father-in-law, prostrated himself before him and kissed him. They inquire about each other’s well-being, and Moses brings Jethro to his tent.

Moses informs his father-in-law of all the miracles and wonders that G-d had performed on behalf of Israel, rescuing them from Egypt. Jethro then blesses G-d and acknowledges the G-d of Israel as the greatest of all powers. He offers burnt sacrifices and festive offerings to G-d.

In the Five Books of Moses, there is no other personage of non-Jewish origin who is accorded as much honor and distinction as Jethro.
.
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[muman613]

Although Tag may have something, but I cannot figure out the timeline, according to Medrash Exodus Rabba 1:32, it appears that it may be possible that he had already started to give up idolatry...

http://www.torahaura.com/Bible/Learn_Torah_With/LTW_5761/LTW_5761_Yitro/LTW_5761_Yitro_Stalh/ltw_5761_yitro_stalh.html

After the Exodus from Egypt, Jethro brought Zipporah and their (the text says, “her”) sons to Moses, who had led the Israelites to the Sinai territory. Having heard that Hashem had rescued Israel from Egypt, Jethro blessed Hashem and declared Hashem to be greater than all the other gods. He then brought a sacrifice to Hashem and shared a meal with Aaron and the elders of Israel. Later Jethro gave Moses sound counsel about the administration of justice among the Israelites. It is to Jethro’s credit that the parashah containing the saga of the Revelation of Torah bears his name, Yitro.

Yet Jethro as a convert received mixed reviews among the Rabbis. A minority of those I consulted looked upon him favorably. Even before his initial encounter with Moses, they observed that Jethro had resigned as a priest. By then, he had concluded that idol worship was worthless and therefore abandoned it. In response to his renunciation of pagan worship, Jethro’s community excommunicated him and his daughters were forced to assume the traditionally male role of tending the sheep. (Exodus Rabbah 1:32)

When Moses sent Jethro away from Sinai before the Revelation, some Rabbis believed that Jethro had left to spread the knowledge of the true God among the Midianites. (Tanhuma B., Exodus 73)

It was in the interpretation of the phrase “Va-yihad Yitro—And Jethro rejoiced” (Exodus 18:9), however, that we can boldly see the Rabbis’ ambivalence toward Jethro. Some maintained that Jethro had genuinely accepted a belief in one God. Hence they understood the word Va-yihad as a derivative of the root YHD, meaning that he had declared God one. (Yalk. Sh. Yitro 268) Others, however, understood the word Va-yihad to be derived from the same root as hiddudin, meaning “goose flesh.” In other words, to these critics, Jethro had developed goose flesh because of his agony over the plight of the Egyptians. (b. Sanhedrin 94a)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Umm point one is not possible... He saved the daughters of Yitro before he even met Yitro... How could Yitro have renounced Idolatry before Moses arrived? Yitros conversion did not happen till after the splitting of the sea (when yitro came to visit the Am in the desert)...

 I think you addressed it afterwards and good find. Add this to it-
Bilaam, Job and Yitro were Pharaoh's advisors. Bilaam said to kill the Jewish babies, and so he was killed. Job was silent and so he was doomed to suffer. Yitro rebelled and fled, and so he merited to have children who would sit on the High Court [Sanhedrin]: Sotah 11a

 From this we see that Yitro was aware of the nation (or group) of Am Yisrael and what they and their fathers Avraham Yitzhawk and Yaakov stood for- The worship of 1 G-D only and the morality combined with it.

 Also add to it
The Midianites were the descendants of Midian, who was a son of Abraham through his wife Keturah: ". . . again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah." (Genesis 25:1-2, King James Version)[7]
The Midianites through their apparent religio-political connection with the Moabites[8] are thought to have worshipped a multitude of gods,[9] including Baal-peor and the Queen of Heaven, Ashteroth. An Egyptian temple of Hathor at Timna continued to be used during the Midianite occupation of the site. However, whether Hathor or some other deity was the object of devotion during this period is impossible to ascertain.


 Soo the worship of 1 G-D was known although as a whole they didn't follow it.

 The only question on this remains is how did Moshe know that they knew and worshiped this way and not assume that they were idolaters. I think I suggested before- perhaps because of what he observed the other shepherds were doing or even saying about these women. Maybe even they were renouncing them with words  (or sayings back and forth) that give Moshe the knowledge of their belief and acceptance of the 1 and only G-D.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also to my original second point- maybe not only not know (the Halacha) , but also perhaps it didn't and doesn't apply to a Bnai Noah of which before the giving of the Torah was the status of Moshe and Bnai Yisrael.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Umm point one is not possible... He saved the daughters of Yitro before he even met Yitro... How could Yitro have renounced Idolatry before Moses arrived? Yitros conversion did not happen till after the splitting of the sea (when yitro came to visit the Am in the desert)...

Yitro was genuinely affected by the account. He responded by blessing G-d who “saved you from Egypt and from Pharaoh.”  He then exclaimed, “Now I know that Hashem is greater than all gods because that which they plotted to do was turned against them.”

The words of Yitro require analysis.  According to Rashi he was saying that “I recognized Him before but now even more.”  This means that belief in Hashem is not a simple either/or proposition.  Noah, who did not enter the Ark until he actually felt the raindrops, was described as one who “believed and didn’t believe.”  He believed but not wholeheartedly.  His faith was not absolute like that of Avraham who “walked before Hashem” prepared to go on whatever path He directed him.  Yitro recognized Hashem but entertained doubts.  His greatness was that he maintained an open mind and yearned to discover the truth.  One who seeks to know Hashem is assisted.  Obtaining a son-in-law such as Moshe was a reward from Heaven, in line with the Rabbinic dictum, “when one comes to purify himself, we help him.”  Divine providence is always there for those who seek to gain and increase their knowledge of G-d.  Opportunities are provided.  However, that is as far as Heaven goes.  It is up to man to exploit to the fullest the benefits Hashem has bestowed on him.

(the full text of this is here, I only took a part out).

http://www.mesora.org/ThirstforKnowledge.html

[edu]

Siftei Chachamim (commenting on Rashi) wonders why Moshe got involved to save the daughters of Yitro, which was a quarrel not related to him.
Siftei Chachamim answers (based on Rashi) that if Yitro was a "Cohen" of Midyan it wouldn't make sense that his daughters would be doing the job of shepherds, unless it was because, he lost his privileged status due to the fact that he had abandoned idolatry. When Moshe found out that the girls were being hounded over the issue of leaving idolatry and becoming attached to the Holy One Blessed be He, his zeal for G-d brought him to intervene.

[Israel Chai]

So today, it's permissible to save the drowning idol worshiped for the life risk to all of us, but does the prohibition of saving the Jew who isn't shomer shabbos apply?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So today, it's permissible to save the drowning idol worshiped for the life risk to all of us, but does the prohibition of saving the Jew who isn't shomer shabbos apply?

 YES to second question. You don't know if the Jew did repentance (at the last minute or soo for example) or if he is Shomer Shabbat or not because of the appearance from the outside as well. For example I know some people who don't wear a Kippa or other things but are Shomer Shabbat as well.
 Perhaps its a different question on someone who is known to be anti-religious and such, for example someone in the Knesset or some judge on the Israeli supreme court or media personality that is anti-religious (not just not religious but specifically anti. ).

 Also the first part not sure it applies soo much to non-Jews in Eress Yisrael. For example if one works with the ambulances and such and one knows that its an Arab terrorist and such who is injured and needs immediate care or he dies, one should do everything they can in order to make sure he dies and not take care of him. Not only because of the issue of idolatry but also the issue of being at war with them and at a time of war we are supposed to kill them and not save their lives like Jews are expected (and forced) to do in Israel today.

[Zelhar]

Do I have to save a gay fish from drowning ?